1 Tuesday, 22 February 2022 2 (9.59 am) 3 MS KENNEDY: Good morning, Chair. 4 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Good morning. 5 MS KENNEDY: Our first witness today is Mr Parmod Kalia. 6 PARMOD KALIA (affirmed) 7 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Good morning, Mr Kalia. I'm very 8 pleased that you've been able to come to give evidence 9 this morning. Thank you very much. 10 A. Thank you. 11 Questioned by MS KENNEDY 12 MS KENNEDY: Mr Kalia, I think you know my name is 13 Ruth Kennedy and I ask questions on behalf of the 14 Inquiry. Have you got a copy of your witness 15 statement there? 16 A. I have. 17 Q. It should be dated 26 January 2022; is that right? 18 A. Yes, it is, yes. 19 Q. If you turn to page 16, your last page, is that your 20 signature there? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Have you read through this statement recently? 23 A. I have. 24 Q. Is it true to the best of your knowledge and belief? 25 A. It is. 1 1 Q. I'm going to start by asking a couple of questions 2 about you. How old are you now? 3 A. I'm 63 now. 4 Q. I believe you currently volunteer at a charity. Could 5 you describe that for the Chair? 6 A. Yes, certainly. It's a spiritual based charity. Its 7 main base head office is in India. It has offices, 8 branches, here in the UK and Canada. It is just 9 a spiritual organisation. It is not religious based, 10 it is for all religions Hindu, Sikh, Christian, Muslim 11 for all religions. 12 Q. What family do you have? 13 A. I've got a wife and I have four children. 14 Q. Prior to working for the Post Office, could you just 15 briefly describe what jobs you had? 16 A. I worked for National Westminster Bank since 1977 17 until 1990, until taking up the Post Office. 18 Q. What did you do at the bank? 19 A. I started off basic junior, and then I done the 20 banking exams, AIB stage 1 in evening classes, and 21 stage 2 on day release the next year. I worked my way 22 up to the assistant manager. 23 Q. Was that the position you had when you left? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Turning then to the Post Office, why did you want to 2 1 purchase a Post Office? 2 A. I was looking for a business to run of my own. I was 3 looking for an office-based business rather than one 4 with unsociable hours or anything, and I had an aunt 5 who was already in the Post Office and she used to 6 talk to me about how it was in the Post Office with 7 the salary and the work, and it was 9 to 5, which is 8 what I was looking for. 9 Q. I think you became subpostmaster of the 10 Chipperfield Road sub-post office; is that right? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Where in the country is that? 13 A. That's in Orpington in Kent. 14 Q. That was in June 1990; is that right? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. So you were a subpostmaster for quite some time before 17 the introduction of Horizon? 18 A. Yes, 1990 to 2000, roughly ten and a half years or so. 19 Q. When was Horizon introduced in your shop? 20 A. 2000. 21 Q. What training did you receive on it? 22 A. Before Horizon was introduced into the shop, I was 23 given about a week-and-a-half training off-site in 24 a classroom and then, as the equipment was installed, 25 I did have someone come in to the office and train me 3 1 for one and a half days. 2 Q. How adequate did you find that training? 3 A. It seemed okay at the beginning. I was used to 4 computers. I was used to financial trading with the 5 banking transactions, I was doing before. It seemed 6 okay. 7 Q. What else were you provided with at that time from the 8 Post Office? 9 A. As in? 10 Q. I think your statement you mention a manual? 11 A. Oh, yes. There is a manual I was given to refer to in 12 case I needed any further help or assistance with 13 anything else as well. 14 Q. How helpful was that? 15 A. I didn't really get the time to refer to the manual 16 much. Whenever there were any problems or issues, the 17 first port of call was always the helpline. 18 Q. Turning then to the shortfalls on the system, did you 19 notice any shortfalls on the Horizon system prior to 20 the audit that was carried out? 21 A. Yes. The shortfalls were beginning to occur from 22 about January 2001 onwards. They were small ones to 23 start with, maybe £100. Before that, with the manual 24 bookkeeping, we used to have shortfalls maybe £20, £30 25 but then, with the Horizon from January, they started 4 1 to get 100/150, but still I was putting it in from my 2 shop side to make it good. Gradually, it got into the 3 thousands and that was the stage where I couldn't put 4 in anymore from the shop side, so I was declaring that 5 I had that cash. 6 Q. You mentioned the helpline previously. What use did 7 you make of the helpline? 8 A. Plenty. Every time -- every time there was an error, 9 it wouldn't balance, the first port of call was always 10 the helpline to see if they could help me and assist 11 me what I could do and what I should do, but they -- 12 their response was always, basically, you should be 13 getting an error notice, which should come to help to 14 resolve the issue. Sometimes the error notices did 15 come but, quite often, there were no error notices. 16 So the differences were -- then I would refer 17 back to the helpline again, saying it's now been 18 two weeks and no error notice, and that's when I was 19 suggested to make it good. 20 Q. Who else did you speak to at the Post Office about 21 these alleged shortfalls? 22 A. My regional manager/area manager. I spoke to her as 23 well and, again, the suggestion was "You have to make 24 it good". 25 Q. Who else did they tell you was encountering these 5 1 problems at the time? 2 A. They didn't tell me there was anyone else encountering 3 any problems at all. They didn't say any of that. 4 Q. How did you feel about being unable to identify the 5 solution to the problem? 6 A. Very, very disturbed. I would quite often be in the 7 Post Office balancing until 12.00 or 1.00 at night, 8 with my wife, with my little girl. She was six or 9 seven at the time. She'd be sleeping there, she'd 10 have to come out early in the morning with us, and 11 she'd have to be sleeping behind the shop counter 12 until we finished. It could be 12.00/1.00 at night. 13 Q. You were then audited, I think, in July/August 2001; 14 is that right? 15 A. That's correct, yes. 16 Q. How many auditors attended? 17 A. Three -- three people came. 18 Q. What was that process like? 19 A. They came in. The Post Office had already opened at 20 9.00, I think it was, and they came in, they said they 21 was going to do an audit, which I knew the protocol 22 that they come in, you stand to one side at the back 23 of the Post Office and let them do what they need to 24 do, count their stock, and so I just stood there at 25 the one side at the back and let them count what they 6 1 needed to count. 2 Q. What did they tell you that they had found? 3 A. They told me they'd found a discrepancy, I think it 4 was in the region of 27,000 at the time, but since 5 then -- I think they're now putting 22,000 in the 6 paperwork, but I think it was 27 to start with. 7 Q. They suspended you that day; is that right? 8 A. Yes. They suspended me. They told me they was going 9 to interview me and I could have a family friend, 10 a solicitor or a representative from the Federation of 11 Postmasters present at the interview. 12 Q. Who did you choose? 13 A. Well, I didn't choose a solicitor. I didn't think 14 I needed a solicitor because I hadn't done anything 15 wrong. So I chose the Federation, National Federation 16 of SubPostmasters rep. 17 Q. What did the Federation representative say? 18 A. When I phoned him and explained what had happened and 19 there was an audit and there was a shortage of 27,000, 20 his first reaction was "How quickly can you put that 21 right to keep it out of the courts?" 22 Q. How did that make you feel? 23 A. He was a senior person to me, he was an experienced 24 person to me, I expected him to know what he was 25 talking about. I followed his advice. I was 7 1 distressed as to where I was going to get that money 2 from to put it right from straight away, so I had to 3 go to my Mum. I had to go to my Mum and ... sorry. 4 Q. Please don't apologise. Let me know if you need 5 a moment. 6 A. I had to go to my Mum and I had to tell her I need 7 £27,000, straight away. She wanted to know what for, 8 why, what's happening. I said "Look, I just need this 9 money now to keep me in a job". So she gave me 10 a cheque from her building society for the figure that 11 they claimed it was short. 12 Q. How did it feel having to ask your mother for that 13 money? 14 A. Very humiliating. Very shameful. 15 Q. How quickly did you give that cheque to the 16 Post Office? 17 A. Within two days. Within two days, I took the cheque 18 to the head office, which was in Bromley, and I gave 19 it to them in person. 20 Q. What did you think would happen then? 21 A. I was assured by the Federation rep that that would be 22 the end of the matter and I could possibly carry on. 23 So I thought shortly I would hear confirmation from 24 the Post Office to say "Fine, it's all sorted, you can 25 start opening the Post Office again". It was closed 8 1 all the duration of this period. 2 Q. How did the rest of your family take you borrowing 3 that money from your mother? 4 A. Immediately, nobody knew other than my wife, 5 obviously, because she was in the shop side but my 6 younger brother got to find out, eventually, that 7 I had taken Mum's money and he wasn't happy. He 8 wasn't happy that I'd taken Mum's life savings from 9 her. In fact, we've fallen out, my brother and 10 myself, as a result of that as well. 11 Q. The Post Office then wanted to interview you formally; 12 is that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What did your Federation representative say then? 15 A. I again contacted the same Federation rep and his 16 response was "Make up a story and plead guilty to get 17 a minimum sentence". 18 Q. So what did you do? 19 A. I made up a story. I made up a story that I'd been 20 buying shares. 21 Q. Why did you make up a story about buying shares? 22 A. I'd worked in the bank for ten years or so. I'd done 23 those transactions for customers. I'd been buying 24 shares and selling shares on behalf of the customers. 25 That was the first thing that just came to my mind 9 1 that, "Yes, okay, I spent that money on buying 2 shares", and, as the Federation had suggested "You'll 3 get the minimum sentence, maybe even a community order 4 as opposed to going to prison". 5 Q. How did it feel making up that story? 6 A. It didn't seem right. It didn't seem right. Why was 7 I doing that? But I was following his advice. He was 8 a senior person to me, experienced. I was following 9 his advice. 10 Q. I think your contract with the Post Office was 11 terminated in around September 2001; is that about 12 right? 13 A. Yes, that's correct. 14 Q. They proceeded to prosecute you for one count of 15 theft. 16 A. Correct, yes. 17 Q. So just confirm, what did you plead? 18 A. I pleaded guilty. 19 Q. Why did you plead guilty? 20 A. As I was advised by the Federation rep: make up 21 a story and plead guilty. 22 Q. Where was your case dealt with? 23 A. Originally it was at Bromley Magistrates' Court. 24 Q. Then, I think, did it move to the Crown Court? 25 A. Yes, yes. At the Magistrates' Court they said, 10 1 because of the amount involved, they couldn't deal 2 with the sentencing, so they referred it to Croydon 3 Crown Court. 4 Q. What sentence did you receive? 5 A. I received a sentence of six months. 6 Q. A custodial sentence? 7 A. Six months' custodial sentence, yes. 8 Q. Were you taken to prison then? 9 A. Straightaway. 10 Q. Which prisons did you go to? 11 A. Originally -- first of all, I was taken to High Down 12 but it was all -- I was numb at that time. When I was 13 taken -- when I was given that sentence I didn't know 14 what was happening, where I was going or what was 15 going to happen to me. The solicitor actually dealing 16 with my defence at the time did come to see me when 17 I was taken down and he suggested "There's no point in 18 appealing because it's going to take that length of 19 time for the appeal to be processed" and he said 20 I should be out in three months. 21 I was given a six-month sentence, I should be 22 out in three months, and there was no point in 23 appealing. It came as a bit of a shock when the 24 prison wardens wanted my belt and my tie off me. 25 That, I felt, was a bit humiliating itself. 11 1 First of all, they took me to High Down prison, 2 which is Category B, I think. Within about a week and 3 a half, I was transferred to Ford Open Prison. 4 Q. What was High Down prison like? 5 A. Walking through the front gate, first of all, front 6 door, being asked to strip and given the uniform. 7 I had a cell, there was a bunk bed in there and there 8 was somebody else already in one of the bunk beds and 9 I was locked up in there, basically, 23 hours of the 10 day. 11 Q. What was Ford Open Prison like? 12 A. Ford Open ... I just kept myself to myself. I didn't 13 make friends. There was a temple in there. I spent 14 a lot of time in the temple in there. I knew I had to 15 do something to keep myself occupied. I applied for 16 a job as ... sorry. 17 Q. Please don't apologise. Take a moment. 18 A. It's the first time she's hearing this. 19 I had to apply for a job to keep myself busy and 20 occupied, so there was a garden centre. I'd do 21 whatever's necessary there. 22 Q. How did you feel while you were in prison? 23 A. Basically, I think I shut down. I wasn't 24 acknowledging anything, I wasn't -- it was just biding 25 time. I couldn't wait for that three months to come 12 1 up. There was a regime. You obviously had to be in 2 bed and be checked in, make sure you're still there 3 and you hadn't absconded or anything. It was not 4 something I was used to. Not something that I've seen 5 before. 6 Q. What was it like coming out of prison after that time? 7 A. When I was released, I was released on tag. 8 Basically, they sent me home by myself, said "Here's 9 your ticket, off you go home and someone will meet you 10 there at 6.00 in the evening", or something. And then 11 I was put on tag, which restricted my movements. 12 I couldn't go out the house after 6.00 pm. I had 13 to -- couldn't leave before 9.00 am in the morning. 14 I couldn't go back to my shop. My shop, at that time, 15 was being run by family, my wife and our children. 16 At that time, we'd also started doing newspaper 17 deliveries, so I couldn't go in for the early morning 18 deliveries. My son obviously expanded into the 19 off-licence section as well, to try to make ends meet, 20 because of the loss of the income from the 21 Post Office, and I couldn't stay late at night for the 22 off-licence. I was on tag for three months. I was 23 restricted with my movements. 24 Q. How did it feel not being able to help your family? 25 A. Very shameful. Very shameful that my job was to care 13 1 for the family, look after them and I couldn't do it. 2 Q. I think your conviction was quashed last year; is that 3 right? 4 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct. 5 Q. I'm now going to ask some questions about the impact 6 that this has had on you and I'm first going to ask 7 you about the financial impact. Can you describe for 8 the Chair what happened to your shop? 9 A. After I was released from prison, the family, my wife 10 and my children were running the shop. The sales were 11 going down, the takings were going down, the 12 Post Office income had completely stopped. We had to 13 still try and make ends meet. 14 In 2005 -- in 2005, I started looking for 15 another job as well, to try and make ends meet. I got 16 a job as a chauffeur. The reason being that 17 I couldn't afford a car of my own. This company gave 18 a car, they gave the training, they gave -- it was on 19 a PAYE system, so I was going to be guaranteed 20 an income, as opposed to being self-employed. 21 So I worked with this chauffeur company, while 22 the family, my son -- my second son was at university. 23 He was coming and going from university and helping 24 out as and when he could. So it was my older son and 25 my wife and she had a couple of young kids, as well, 14 1 to look after, my daughter's, but I started working as 2 a chauffeur first and then I moved on to minicabbing 3 after that as well. 4 Q. What impact did that change of employment have on your 5 finances? 6 A. There was a reduction in income from the Post Office. 7 I fell behind with my tax situation, as well. I was 8 being fined for penalties, interest, surcharges. We 9 couldn't keep up. I was trying to sell the shop, 10 tried on many occasions to try and sell the shop. 11 There was no Post Office, nobody was interested. The 12 footfall was decreasing. The sales were going down. 13 Nobody was interested. 14 The shop, eventually I ended up closing down 15 altogether. I couldn't sell it, I didn't get any 16 goodwill for it. When the lease came up for renewal, 17 I couldn't carry on taking on that lease with that 18 reduced income, so I had to close it down. 19 Q. What other financial consequences did this have on 20 you? 21 A. Financial consequences, my son, second son, he was at 22 an independent fee-paying school before the audit and 23 he was finishing school to go on to university. My 24 second daughter at the time -- my first daughter, 25 sorry, Nicky is the second. My oldest daughter was 15 1 just turning 11. Before, again, the Horizon, I had 2 already admitted her into the same fee-paying school. 3 I had to take her out of that after I came out from 4 prison. I had to remove her and then she had to be 5 admitted to an ordinary state school. They were 6 capable children. They've done their -- they're 7 bright, intelligent children but I've destructed her 8 education. She'd made friends there and she told me 9 that she's lost those friends, as well, for good. 10 Q. How did that feel? 11 A. Again, being -- it felt as though I was letting the 12 family down again. I wasn't supporting, caring for 13 the family as I should have been. The plans that we 14 had made for the children's education had all failed. 15 Q. What compensation have you received to date? 16 A. The only compensation I've received is, being a member 17 of one of the 555, the compensation that was paid out, 18 I've received a proportion of that, £27,000 I think. 19 Since my conviction's been quashed last year, I have 20 applied for interim payment. That's been refused. 21 I believe I'm one of three who have had their interim 22 payments refused and it does make me think: is it 23 because of colour? The three of us are of colour, 24 that I know of. Why? Why has this interim payment 25 been refused? 16 1 My solicitors, Hudgells, have done a very good 2 job understanding and appreciating and acknowledging 3 that I wasn't at fault. They've done everything they 4 can to refer my case to the CCRC, as a result of 5 which, because of their intervention, the CCRC, the 6 Criminal Cases Review Commission have then decided to 7 refer my case to Southwark Crown Court with a view to 8 having my conviction overturned. The judge believed, 9 obviously, what was said and my conviction has been 10 quashed. The Post Office are still adamant that I'm 11 not entitled to any interim payment for some reason. 12 Q. How has your health suffered as a result of all of 13 this? 14 A. Since 2002, after all these events, my health -- I've 15 got diabetes type 2. I have other conditions 16 associated. They don't know for sure but they're 17 putting it down to possibly diabetes. My eyes -- 18 I have issues with my eyes, where they kept blinking 19 excessively. The specialist put it down to 20 blepharospasm, treated it with botox and told me that 21 that's not a cure, that is just a temporary fix for 22 three months, and then come back. I've had that 23 consecutively for two years or so. 24 My feet are -- neuropathy is what they diagnosed 25 as, difficulty in walking with my feet. They stay 17 1 cold all the time, daytime, nighttime. My diabetes is 2 virtually out of control at the moment and the doctors 3 are talking about putting me on insulin. 4 Q. What about your mental health? 5 A. Since I came out of prison, I have kept very much to 6 myself. I haven't discussed with anybody the aspect 7 of what's happened to me, the Post Office. I've 8 buried it. Completely totally buried it, and it was 9 only in 2015 when I saw a Panorama programme about the 10 Post Office, and that's when I realised that that's 11 possibly what could have happened to me. 12 From 2001 to 2015 I'd completely buried that 13 aspect of the Post Office. I wanted to carry on with 14 my life but it was only in 2015 when I saw that 15 Panorama programme that I realised that that's 16 possibly what's happened to me and actually, since 17 then, I'm now in depression, anxiety issues, with 18 constant delaying of, first of all, the CCRC, they 19 refused it, but my solicitors applied and managed to 20 convince them that, yes, I am a victim of this 21 Post Office scandal. 22 Then the court case for quashing my conviction, 23 it was in -- I received confirmation from CCRC in 24 January 2021 last year that they were going to refer 25 it to the courts. The Post Office, first of all, they 18 1 gave a date in February, delayed it again for 2 two weeks, then it was in March and then it was in 3 May. So they kept delaying it and that just builds up 4 my anxiety even more, a lot more. Anxiety -- I'm on 5 depressant now. In April last year I went to my GP 6 and, for the first time, I told him I was suffering 7 from depression, anxiety, and I had attempted suicide 8 on three occasions in 2015. 9 Q. How -- 10 A. He's put me on antidepressants, my GP, for that. 11 Q. How do you feel about yourself as a person now? 12 A. I'm not myself. I am very quiet. I'm forgetful but 13 I'm not -- I'm not as I used to be with a get up and 14 go enthusiasm. I'm lacking enthusiasm to want to do 15 anything. I'm just accepting what it is. 16 Q. I'm now going to ask you some questions about the 17 impact this has had on your family. You talk in your 18 statement about culturally the impact of having 19 a conviction. Could you just explain to the Chair 20 what the cultural impact of having a conviction has 21 meant for you? 22 A. Cultural impacts. I'm Indian, I'm Asian. I'm British 23 Asian, I'm happy to be British as well. I've been 24 here all my life, I've been here since the age of 6 in 25 this country, I've grown up here, I'm educated here 19 1 but I do still have some Indian values in me as well 2 whereby, yes, we do still follow our culture. 3 One of the main aspects of our culture is the 4 marriage system for the children. The marriage system 5 is it works in conjunction with their acceptance. 6 I know the children were all born here, they had their 7 freedom to make their own choices, nothing is imposed 8 upon them but with the marriage system it works more 9 often as an introductory, as an arranged marriage, 10 where you meet the family of the other side and then, 11 once there's a mutual understanding, marriages can be 12 arranged. 13 But with a conviction around me at the time my 14 older son was due to be getting married, no Asian 15 family would want to consider anybody with a criminal 16 conviction. That is a very bad stigma against any 17 Asian family, either any member of the family. It 18 doesn't have to be the partner, any member of the 19 family, if they have any kind of a criminal 20 conviction, it is looked as a very bad stigma upon 21 them. 22 I then had to, literally, arrange a marriage for 23 my son, my older son, in India. I had to take the 24 whole family, my wife, my children, to India in 2005. 25 That was in 2005. Prison for an Asian person is very 20 1 much a stigma altogether. I have lost many friends 2 who I used to -- at the time before the Post Office, 3 we were very good friends. They were other 4 postmasters. I knew them. We were on very good terms 5 with postmasters. Since then they haven't spoken to 6 me. I don't have those friends either. 7 Q. What was the impact of this on your wife? 8 A. The children and the wife, and my wife, they couldn't 9 understand what had happened because I had no 10 explanation. They understood that there was an audit, 11 there was a shortage, where's the money, I have no 12 explanation. I can't say it was the computers because 13 I didn't know it was the computers. The children have 14 been actually been doubting, "Have you actually taken 15 the money?" Even now, until fairly recently, it's 16 still -- the relationship with my wife is to an extent 17 that, since 2015, after my suicide attempts, I was 18 taken in by this charity and I stay there, I live 19 there, I don't live with my wife. But I'm there, 20 I haven't gone down the route of divorce. 21 She's a foster carer, as I am. We were 22 registered foster carers in November 2013. We were 23 both registered as foster carers. So if she needs me 24 for anything because -- to take care of the children, 25 the foster children, I'm there I'm only a telephone 21 1 call away, I can go in I can see it. But we don't 2 have that husband and wife matrimonial relationship. 3 I've been living away from home since 2015. 4 Q. How did it feel to have your children doubt your 5 innocence? 6 A. Sorry, say again? 7 Q. How did it feel to have your children doubt your 8 innocence? 9 A. It feels inadequate. It makes me feel inadequate. 10 I haven't supplied for them, I haven't provided for 11 the children, I haven't -- they actually call this as 12 a dysfunctional family at the moment. They have 13 classified this as a dysfunctional family, all because 14 of my conviction. 15 Q. You mentioned borrowing money from your mother 16 earlier. What impact did this have on your 17 relationship with your mother? 18 A. My mother -- a parent will always love their children. 19 My mother has always loved me, as being the oldest 20 son. I was living away from home, from '15 to '18, 21 when she wasn't too well, my mother. She was 22 diagnosed with cancer. So I moved from the charity to 23 take care of her from '18 to '19. She passed away in 24 September '19. 25 But my relationship with my mother is always of 22 1 very high regard, very -- respect, she's an elder, 2 she's a parent to me and she has helped me out on 3 occasions when I have needed her help, more than 4 anybody else. She has been there for me. 5 Q. I think it is right that she died before your 6 conviction was quashed; is that right? 7 A. Yes, that's correct. She passed away in September '19 8 and my conviction was quashed in May '21. 9 Q. How does it make you feel that she didn't get to see 10 your conviction quashed? 11 A. She didn't know about it. She hadn't been told about 12 it. At the time when I was due to go to prison, she 13 was sent away to India so she wouldn't know. Had she 14 known, had she found out, I think that probably would 15 have killed her then and there. She had her own 16 health problems. She didn't know I had a conviction. 17 There was no way I could face to tell her that I'm 18 a convicted criminal and been in prison. 19 Q. What about your siblings? Did they know? 20 A. My brother knew. My brother knew from the beginning. 21 He'd been helping me in getting legal assistance. 22 He'd been coming in and checking on the family while 23 I was in prison, making sure they were okay, but there 24 is still an aspect of he is accusing me of having 25 taken his inheritance, quite rightly. He's blaming me 23 1 for that. My brother has been there but we're not on 2 talking terms at present, over this issue of this 3 money I've taken from Mum. 4 My sister, she's older than me. She didn't know 5 a thing. She didn't know a thing until two days 6 before my conviction was due to be quashed. She 7 didn't have a clue that I'd been in prison. 8 Q. How did it feel to keep something like that from your 9 immediate family? 10 A. I had to try and keep my sanity. I didn't want to 11 disrupt the family any more than the immediate family 12 that had been affected already, my wife, my children, 13 my brother knew. It was just something I couldn't 14 discuss with them. It was unbearable to think as to 15 how I could even tell them I'd been a convicted 16 criminal. 17 Q. What would you like from the Post Office now? 18 A. Post Office: apology? No. Apology is no good. We've 19 had an apology. I've had an apology. It's not worth 20 the words it's written on. The Post Office need to -- 21 in all of this time this has been going on, the 22 Post Office has been accusing us of -- us postmasters 23 of taking money. What I don't understand is, they 24 were then classifying themselves as victims. They 25 were investigators, prosecutors and they were 24 1 executioners themselves. 2 Why has someone or anyone not gone to them and 3 say "Where's the money? What have you done with it?" 4 Why has someone not gone round to their houses and 5 looked under their mattresses and said "Where's the 6 money? Search them around". Justice needs to be 7 done. We need to find out from the Post Office what's 8 happening there. What happened? Why? Why did they 9 do this to so many people, innocent people? 10 Q. Is there anything else you'd like to say to the Chair? 11 A. No, I think that's fine. Thank you. 12 Q. I'm just going to turn to the Chair now to see if he 13 has any questions. Do you have any questions? 14 Questions from SIR WYN WILLIAMS 15 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Just one or two, Mr Kalia. You've told 16 me that you've had an apology from the Post Office but 17 you've also told me that you've been refused 18 an interim payment. 19 A. Correct. 20 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I'd just like to get the sequence of 21 events right, if I may. Did you get the apology 22 before the refusal of the interim payment? 23 A. Yes. 24 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I take it that was in writing? 25 A. Yes. 25 1 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Do you still have that apology? 2 A. I do, yes. 3 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Would you be good enough to send it to 4 the Inquiry so that I can see it for myself? 5 A. Certainly, yes. 6 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you. 7 Then yesterday we had one of the -- we had 8 a lady giving evidence who, like you, has had her 9 application for an interim payment refused and she was 10 prepared to send me the letter of refusal. Would you 11 do the same, please? 12 A. Definitely. I can do that as well, sir. 13 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you very much, Mr Kalia, and 14 thank you, again, for coming to give evidence before 15 me this morning. 16 A. Thank you for the opportunity for letting me come to 17 give my evidence, sir. I appreciate that. 18 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Well, I'm pleased to hear you say that. 19 Thank you. 20 MS KENNEDY: Chair, our next witness is Mrs Joan Bailey 21 who is appearing remotely. I propose we take 22 a ten-minute break and perhaps come back at 10.50 to 23 take her evidence. 24 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, that's fine Ms Kennedy. So I'll 25 break off for ten minutes. Thank you. 26 1 MS KENNEDY: Thank you. 2 (10.39 am) 3 (A short break) 4 (10.52 am) 5 MS KENNEDY: Chair, our next witness is Mrs Joan Bailey. 6 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Good morning, Mrs Bailey. 7 JOAN BAILEY (sworn) 8 Questioned by MS KENNEDY 9 MS KENNEDY: As I think you know, my name's Ruth Kennedy 10 and I ask questions on behalf of the Inquiry. Have 11 you got a copy of your witness statement there with 12 you? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. I think it should be dated 11 February 2022; is that 15 right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. If you turn to the last page, which I think is 18 page 20 -- 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. -- is that your signature? 21 A. It is. 22 Q. Have you read through this statement recently? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Is it true to the best of your knowledge and belief? 25 A. Yes. 27 1 Q. I'm going to start by asking you a couple of 2 introductory questions about you. How old are you 3 now? 4 A. I'm 71 now. 5 Q. You talk in your statement about your husband who was 6 a subpostmaster; is that right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. How long have you two been together? 9 A. Oh, near on -- about 48 years. 10 Q. How many children do you have? 11 A. Four. 12 Q. I think you say in your statement for a long time you 13 lived near Shrewsbury in Shropshire; is that right? 14 A. Yes, we lived in a small farming village. 15 Q. What jobs did your husband have before becoming 16 a subpostmaster? 17 A. Well, when he left school, he went to college and he 18 learned to be a builder, a carpenter and he spent 19 about seven years at college and with work experience, 20 and then he did that until the early '70s. And then 21 the building trade wasn't doing particularly well, so 22 he then went into the motor trade and he stayed in the 23 motor trade and he went right up to be -- from 24 a service manager to being a general manager, and he 25 quite enjoyed the job, but the places he was working 28 1 it was not doing particularly well. So he was made 2 redundant and he went then to learn to be a 3 cheesemaker, and he did very well. He loved the job 4 and he won many prizes for his cheeses and he made 5 county cheeses and he really enjoyed that. 6 But later on, he was offered a job at Mullers in 7 Market Drayton, which was much better paid and much 8 less hours. He was working 72 hours a week when he 9 was a cheesemaker, and he took that job and he worked 10 for them and, you know, he stayed with them as long 11 as -- until I was taken ill. 12 Q. What jobs did you have before you started to work for 13 the Post Office? 14 A. Well, when I left college -- I left school and I went 15 to college and there did an HND in hotel and catering 16 and I worked in hotels and then restaurants, French 17 restaurants. And then, in the early '70s, my brother 18 and I opened a French restaurant and we were quite 19 successful, and we got into the Good Food Guide after 20 about two years, and it did very well. 21 And then we decided to sell the restaurant 22 because my husband then wanted to move back to 23 Shropshire because the restaurant was in 24 Stoke-on-Trent. And so we sold the business, went 25 then to Shrewsbury and I had two more children -- 29 1 I had my two younger children. 2 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that you got ill. Could 3 you just explain to the Chair, I think that happen in 4 the year 2000. What happened to you? 5 A. Well, I hadn't been particularly well, very bad 6 headaches for quite a while and, this particular day, 7 I went to work in the morning and I said to one of the 8 girls, "I feel really poorly, I have to go home" and 9 I went home and my husband was on nights, so I just 10 climbed into bed by the side of him and when he woke 11 up, to get up, you know, to have his dinner before he 12 went back to work, they couldn't wake me properly. 13 So they took -- my eldest daughter took me 14 straight to the doctor's surgery and I went in and, by 15 that time, I'd gone into a coma and my blood pressure 16 was extremely high and the doctor said "Right, I'm 17 calling for an ambulance I just don't like the look of 18 this at all", and so he called for an ambulance and 19 I was rushed to the Royal Shrewsbury Hospital, which 20 was about four miles from our house. And they did -- 21 I think it was a CT scan, and they said that -- well, 22 I don't know because I was unconscious, and they said 23 that I had a brain tumour but that the pressure on my 24 head wouldn't allow them to fly me to -- by helicopter 25 to Smethwick, so they sent me to Stoke-on-Trent. They 30 1 have got a very good department there for brain 2 injuries, and such. 3 I was taken by police escort to Stoke-on-Trent 4 and I had an operation because -- first of all, to get 5 the pressure off my head because I had high -- because 6 the tumour that I had was growing over the natural 7 drain in my head and so my head obviously was, you 8 know, just not good. And so they drilled a hole in 9 the top of my head here (indicated) and they drained 10 the fluid off my brain and then, when I woke up 11 a couple of days later, they told me that I had 12 a tumour, that it had got to be removed and they said 13 they would do it as soon as possible within the next 14 two days. 15 But the next day my sight went completely and so 16 then they realised that they'd have to do it as 17 an emergency. So they did the operation as emergency 18 and I was -- I think I was in the theatre, they said, 19 my daughter said, for around about 12 to 13 hours and 20 then I, you know, I woke up a few days later. 21 But during that time of when I was, you know, 22 kind of recovering from the brain injury -- because 23 when you have any brain injury they don't wake you if 24 possible, they kind of let you rest, so that 25 everything is resting so your brain can recover, and 31 1 I got an MRSI and so I was very, very ill, and that 2 nearly killed me. But the doctors, again, were 3 magnificent and they -- after a few days, I was much 4 better. But it did take me a long time to recover. 5 Q. After that, I think you say in your statement that 6 your husband thought it might be a good idea to work 7 together, so you weren't working alone. What idea did 8 he have about what you could do together? 9 A. Right, okay. So once I'd learnt to, kind of, look 10 after myself and feed myself, because I'd got no 11 co-ordination at all, so my husband was talking and 12 I wanted to get back to work. I'm not a kind of couch 13 potato, I do like to, kind of, be busy. And so my 14 husband was kind of wondering what kind of work he 15 could do and then he, kind of, come up with "Well, 16 perhaps if we had something like a Post Office in 17 a little shop, you know, you could run the shop or 18 Post Office and, you know, we can spend more time 19 together", because then he could always be there if 20 I was ever taken ill. 21 Because when I first, you know, recovered from 22 the tumour, I did have occasional fits. So, you know, 23 he wanted to make sure that he was there with me. So 24 we decided to buy the shop and the Post Office. 25 Q. How did you feel about working for the Post Office at 32 1 that time? 2 A. I was a little bit -- well, I think that the thing 3 that really -- we went for our interview with the 4 Post Office in the May 2005, and we told them that we 5 were selling a house and that were thinking of buying 6 the particular Post Office, and so they seemed very 7 happy with us and they said that they would do the 8 normal checks that they do and that they would arrange 9 for training as soon as we took over the Post Office, 10 which was -- we rang them in June, the end of 11 June/beginning of July said "Our completion date is 12 20 August 2005, can you arrange for the training?" 13 Q. Just pausing there for a moment, I think the 14 Post Office you're talking about is the Howey Old 15 Post Office; is that right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Where was that? 18 A. It was in Llandrindod, in Mid Wales. 19 Q. So you moved from where you were living in Shrewsbury 20 or near Shrewsbury to Wales, to run this Post Office? 21 A. Yes, we knew Wales very well and my husband knew this 22 area because he had been fishing, you know, in this 23 area. 24 Q. Can you describe that Post Office for the Chair? 25 A. Yes, it's a beautiful building, stone building, built 33 1 in about 1864. It's just very nice. As you come into 2 the village and you see the property, and it is 3 a lovely property. And it had a nice big garden, 4 which I loved, because I love gardening, and we had 5 two Dobermanns, and so they loved the garden because 6 they could run round, and it was very nice. You know, 7 we were really attracted to it. 8 Q. What role did you have in that Post Office? 9 A. Well, because we had the Howey Post Office, also my 10 husband took on the two satellite Post Offices. So he 11 ran the satellite Post Office at Hundred House, which 12 is near Builth Wells, and then, in the other 13 direction, he ran the Llanbadarn and, you know, he 14 kind of went out two days a week to those two 15 Post Offices. 16 Q. I think you mentioned a moment ago the training and 17 requesting to be set up. Could you describe what 18 training you received when you started working for the 19 Post Office? 20 A. Well, the training should have commenced in August 21 when we took over the property but the Post Office 22 said they'd got nobody to train us. So the previous 23 postmaster came to do the Post Office and we kind of, 24 you know, looked after the shop but he was running the 25 Post Office and then on the days when he went to 34 1 Llanbadarn and Hundred House, his wife stood in at 2 Howey Post Office. 3 This went on for three months, so we weren't 4 being paid and also the Post Office include a small 5 office payment, which pays for electricity for 6 computers, so we paid for two computers, two printers 7 24/7 for three months, because the previous postmaster 8 didn't tell us about and so we weren't paid, and it 9 was about £250 a month, and it was November when they 10 started the training. 11 Q. In November what training did you receive then? 12 A. About four days, at the most, and the days when the 13 trainer went with my husband to the satellite 14 Post Offices I didn't get any training, so I suppose 15 mine was about two days. 16 Q. How sufficient do you think the training was? 17 A. It wasn't. It wasn't. It was the busiest time of the 18 year, you know, this is kind of November when there's 19 lots of posting ready for Christmas and everything, 20 and it was just so busy and we were trying to learn 21 how to do the job and the training was totally 22 inadequate. 23 Q. I think you wrote to the Post Office, is that right, 24 requesting further training? 25 A. Well, yes, we wrote -- well, the man who trained us 35 1 actually wrote a letter himself and wrote to the 2 Post Office and said that, you know, "These people 3 need more training and we must arrange for more 4 training for them". And when nothing had kind of 5 happened within a few weeks I again wrote to the 6 Post Office myself and said "Can you please, you know, 7 do some more training for us?" 8 Q. When was Horizon Online introduced in your 9 Post Office? 10 A. I think it was 2009. 11 Q. What training did you receive on that? 12 A. I think it was a day or half a day, something. It 13 wasn't very long. 14 Q. I'm now going to ask you some questions about the 15 shortfalls that showed on the system. What shortfalls 16 did you notice initially? 17 A. Initially, it was just a few pounds. It would 18 probably be £5 or £10, something like that and 19 I thought, oh, I'd probably -- you know, because we 20 hadn't been trained very well, I thought, well, I must 21 have done something or I must have, kind of, put in 22 two lots of stamps, or whatever, and so I just put the 23 money in and, you know, I took it out of the shop 24 takings and just put it in the Post Office and I did 25 this, you know, for quite a while. 36 1 Q. What use did you make of the helpline? 2 A. I rang them up and they -- well, they were totally 3 useless. I mean, they didn't really want to know. 4 They just said, "Well, look if it's short and you 5 can't find it, you're going to have to put it in". 6 So, you know, that was their stock answer. Or they 7 said, well, if it was something that I didn't know how 8 to do, they'd said "Well, look in the manuals". There 9 was 12 manuals, ring-backed manuals. How on earth did 10 they expect you to go all through them when you've got 11 a customer waiting? It was ridiculous. 12 Q. Did you notice a change in the shortfalls appearing 13 when Horizon Online was installed? 14 A. Yes, they got much higher. And I'd do cash 15 declarations at night and then I'd do one in the 16 following morning because they were different, 17 completely different. 18 Q. How did you feel about being unable to resolve these 19 issues? 20 A. Well, I was really distressed. I kind of -- I mean, 21 I kind of, again thinking: well, is it me? You know, 22 is my tumour coming back, because I just couldn't seem 23 to reconcile anything. And I kept putting money in 24 and it was getting higher, and higher, and higher, and 25 I just thought: this is ridiculous. It took all our 37 1 savings. It took, you know, money that we had and 2 then I started having to kind of borrow money from 3 loan companies, to kind of -- to put the money in. 4 Q. How much money would you estimate that you put in? 5 A. Probably over the years, over the six years, probably 6 about £40,000. 7 Q. What types of loans did you take out to finance 8 putting that money in? 9 A. One of them we took -- well, we took two smaller 10 loans, one from RBS and one from Barclays. I think 11 one was about 10,000 and one was about 7,000. And 12 then, towards the end, we took one out from -- oh, 13 I think it was Blemain Finance or something like that 14 and that was a secured loan and, you know, we took 15 that out and -- to kind of get the -- you know, to 16 kind of balance up properly. 17 Q. What happened eventually? 18 A. Well, eventually, it got to the point where I couldn't 19 borrow any more money, we'd used all our savings and 20 I just -- I was just beside myself and I didn't tell 21 my husband because -- well, I thought that he'd think 22 it was me, that I'd done something wrong, that I just 23 wasn't taking care, which wasn't true because I'm 24 always very careful. And in December 2010, we had 25 a very bad time with our children. Our oldest 38 1 daughter had miscarried her baby in late pregnancy, 2 one she'd been trying for over ten years, and so we 3 were very upset about that. My youngest son's 4 relationship had broken off, and he was living in 5 a car, so that he could be close to his children and 6 then ... sorry. 7 Our youngest daughter, she'd been ill -- well, 8 she is ill now, as well, with liver disease, and just 9 wasn't getting any better, and she was going through 10 a particularly bad time. So my husband was distraught 11 over this and I couldn't tell him. Sorry. 12 I couldn't tell him about the money and then 13 on -- I think it was 5 January 2011, the auditor came 14 and I was in bed ill at the time. I'd got, I think it 15 was swine flu, I was really poorly in bed, and my 16 husband was downstairs and the auditor checked through 17 the money and checked through the stamps, and then she 18 said she wanted to speak to me. And my husband said 19 "Well, she's very ill, could you just go and speak to 20 her upstairs", and she said "No, tell your wife to 21 come down here". 22 Sorry, I'll just have a drink. 23 Q. Please don't apologise. Let me know if you need 24 a moment. 25 A. So I went downstairs and she said that "You have 39 1 a shortfall in your money", and I said "I know", and 2 she said "Well, where is the money?" and I said "There 3 isn't any money". I said "I just don't know what's 4 happening, I can't do it anymore", because we'd just 5 used up all the money that we had. 6 We had a lot of money that we had from the sale 7 of our house and we'd spent £30,000 renovating all the 8 shop and part of the Post Office and I said there 9 wasn't anymore, and so she said, "Well, I must ring 10 the office", and she spoke to someone, I don't know 11 who it was, and she told my husband that he'd be -- 12 I can't think of the word. What's it called? 13 Q. Suspended? 14 A. Suspended, yes. She told him he'd be suspended and 15 then she proceeded to ring a Post Office just a bit 16 closer to town and said that "Is there anyone who 17 could cover Howey Post Office because there was 18 a problem, a short" -- not a shortfall, it was 19 "a deficit in the Post Office and did they have anyone 20 spare that could come and run the Post Office". And 21 the people said "No, there isn't anyone". So the 22 Post Office was closed. 23 Q. I think, just to be clear, the discrepancy identified 24 was in the region of £13,000; is that right? 25 A. That's right, yes. 40 1 Q. I think you've touched on this but your husband 2 resigned shortly after this audit; is that right? 3 A. Well, what happened is we were told to go down to 4 Swansea, I think it was, or was it Cardiff? I can't 5 remember -- and to see a Mr Burston, and we went down 6 and we had an interview and it was recorded. He told 7 us it would be recorded and that they would send us 8 a copy of the recording on CD, and then a few days 9 later they would send the password, so that we could 10 get in to go through the CD ourselves. 11 And they questioned us both about the shortfall 12 and -- when they did the audit on Howey, they couldn't 13 do the audit on the Post Offices that my husband ran, 14 the satellite stations, because the computer was down 15 again. So they couldn't do it at that time, and so 16 they had to come back later and do that audit on that, 17 and that was over by about £45. 18 So when -- they kind of took that £45 off the 19 13,000, and so it was -- I don't -- £12,000 and 20 something. I can't remember. 21 They did send us the CD but they sent the CD and 22 the password in the same envelope, so that was good 23 security. You know, there was no security and yet 24 they'd harped on about the security issue. And so my 25 husband at this time was really quite ill. Because of 41 1 all the worry we'd had over the children, he wasn't 2 really well anyway, but then when all of this came 3 out, he was referred to the mental health team because 4 he was talking about that he didn't see any point, how 5 he couldn't kind of go any further. He was talking 6 about suicide. 7 And so they -- they kind of -- he went to see 8 them quite often, two or three times a week, and he 9 was put on antidepressants. 10 I'm sorry, I've forgotten where I am. 11 He was put on antidepressants and he had -- we 12 were told that it would probably be a couple of weeks 13 for them to reach their decision. 14 After about two weeks, I rang Mr Burston up and 15 I said, you know, "We haven't had an appointment -- we 16 haven't had an answer yet". It wasn't him who 17 answered, it was his secretary, and she said that he'd 18 gone on holiday for two weeks. So, by the time we had 19 a reply of what the Post Office was going to do, it 20 was March. So we went from the beginning of January 21 to March and they wrote a letter and they said that my 22 husband could have the Post Office back and he spoke 23 to the mental health team that had been dealing with 24 him and they advised him that he shouldn't do it. 25 They'd said that it was not a good thing for him to do 42 1 because they didn't think he would mentally be able to 2 cope with it, with running the Post Office again. 3 So my husband then resigned and a few days later 4 we had a letter from Mr Burston and going through he 5 should have given three months' notice to resign. 6 Well, he had been on suspension for six months with no 7 salary at all, and they wouldn't even pay him sick 8 pay, and he couldn't get statutory sick pay because it 9 has to be paid by the employer. 10 On the letter, at the bottom of the letter, it 11 says "We understand that you have resigned from this 12 position at the Post Office so that we don't summarily 13 dismiss you". And I thought: well, they offered him 14 his job back so why would they dismiss him? It just 15 didn't make sense. 16 Q. How did you feel about the impact that this was having 17 on your husband? 18 A. I was very worried about him. I mean, he's never 19 suffered with mental health before. He's always been, 20 you know, a happy chap. He's always told rubbish 21 jokes and, you know, he was a really happy man. He 22 was just completely different. I mean, he was moody, 23 he would get very upset at the slightest thing, he was 24 short tempered -- he's always had a bit of a temper 25 but nothing like, you know, he was with that -- and 43 1 I was just very, very worried. 2 Q. You've mentioned some meetings with investigation 3 officers. I think you had one you mentioned in March. 4 Who represented you? Did you have representation 5 then? 6 A. Yes. There's very good solicitors in Shrewsbury and 7 I had the criminal solicitor. I think his name was 8 Andrew Tench and he went with me to the first 9 interview. 10 Q. I think it's November 2011 that you are told -- that 11 you are given a caution for false accounting; is that 12 right? 13 A. That's right, yes, yes. 14 Q. So you had to wait a long time? 15 A. Well, March until November. 16 Q. What was that like? 17 A. Well, for that meeting -- the first meeting was in 18 Shrewsbury, which was fine because -- it's fine 19 because we've got two daughters who live in 20 Shrewsbury, so we were able to drive -- my husband 21 drove over and we stayed the night at my daughter's 22 and went to the -- well, I went to the interview and 23 then we drove back. 24 But when I went for the caution, we had to 25 drive, I think it was Newport, Shropshire, which 44 1 actually from our house is 120 miles round trip, and 2 it was -- I'm sure it was disused because there was no 3 vehicles there, there was nobody around at all and we 4 just went into this little -- I'd describe it as 5 basically a broom cupboard. It was disgusting. It 6 was dirty. It was just not nice at all. 7 I was given the -- I can't think of -- caution. 8 I was given the caution, and that was it then. 9 Q. What happened to the business? 10 A. Well, we carried on with the shop because it was 11 a nice shop. You know, the one storey of the house 12 was the street-level storey, and that was originally 13 built as a shop and part of the shelving in the shop 14 was the original shop, you know, from 1864 or 15 whenever, and what we did when we renovated it, 16 a friend -- a carpenter who we knew, he kind of made 17 all the units and everything to match the original 18 shelving, and it was a beautiful shop, it really was. 19 We had a large fridge, and I used to do all the 20 baking and cooking for the fridge, and lasagne and 21 cottage pies, and all sorts of things, steak and 22 kidney pies, which I had a waiting lists for that, and 23 chicken and mushroom pies. And I used to bake all the 24 cakes and at Christmas time I'd make all the Christmas 25 cakes. One year I made about 35/37 Christmas cakes 45 1 and then, the following year, it increased because 2 they'd been told about the cakes. So, you know, it 3 was very successful. 4 But I don't know. Our heart had gone, you know, 5 because we enjoyed the amount of footfall that was 6 coming in when we had the Post Office but it was just 7 got to the point where we had -- I don't know, Tesco 8 came and Aldi came, and people preferred to walk, you 9 know, two miles into town and get their milk for £1 10 whereas our milk was 1.35. It got to the stage where 11 our electricity bills were about, kind of, £800 12 a quarter and we just couldn't do it. We just 13 couldn't do it. 14 We were using our pensions up because our 15 pensions had kicked in then. My husband's private 16 pensions and both our state pensions but, even then, 17 we still couldn't do it, because we couldn't run our 18 house without -- while we were trying to pay bills for 19 the shop, because we'd taken out -- we'd used up all 20 the -- we paid the Post Office, to keep it level, out 21 of our takings, so we'd built no reserves up. 22 So we decided that we would have to close the 23 shop. There was nothing we could do. It was in the 24 winter and we'd gone all through the winter not 25 putting the heating on in the house until around 7.00 46 1 at night, and just putting it on for two hours and 2 then going to bed, so that you know we didn't use 3 money on our heating. So we closed the shop and then 4 the following year my husband was taken ill with 5 cancer. 6 Q. Was the reason that you didn't have any reserves 7 because, in part, of the money that you'd paid into 8 the Post Office to make good the shortfalls? 9 A. Yes, yes, yes. 10 Q. Are there any other financial consequences that you 11 would like to tell the Chair about? 12 A. Well, it just drained us. You know, we'd always -- it 13 had always been -- you know, we both had to work hard 14 because we had four children to take care of and -- 15 but, you know, we always had a good Christmas, the 16 children had lots of things, we went on holiday for 17 a fortnight every year as the children were growing 18 up. And, you know, we went from kind of not really 19 having to worry about money to, kind of, every penny 20 counts. And it was just -- we were just drained. 21 It was -- oh, I don't know. It was just -- we 22 just couldn't do it anymore. I got to the point 23 where, you know, I was trying to think how we could 24 save money but there was no way we could save it 25 because we were doing everything we possibly could do 47 1 not to spend money. 2 Q. You spoke earlier about your husband's health. What 3 impact has all of this had on your health? 4 A. Well, I've always been -- even though I've had 5 brain -- problems with my brain, I've always been 6 a glass half full person. I've always been 7 an optimist. I've always been "Don't worry, it will 8 be fine", kind of thing. But, unfortunately, with the 9 stress and everything, it took its toll in a different 10 way, and so it caused quite a few illnesses which were 11 all stress-related. You know, diverticulitis and 12 angina, asthma. These are all exaggerated by stress 13 and, you know -- and I had a stroke a few years ago. 14 It was only a small stroke but I had a stroke, so now 15 I have to take medication for that, and angina and 16 I have the spray under my tongue for that, and 17 I didn't have these before. I didn't have these 18 problems before. 19 As I say, I was always you know an optimist, the 20 eternal optimist, my husband used to call me and, you 21 know ... 22 So, it was just very difficult and I was trying 23 to support him and so I felt as if everything was on 24 my little shoulders, and I'm 4 foot 10, and I couldn't 25 stand the kind of pressure that it was putting on me, 48 1 but I couldn't let my husband have the pressure 2 because I knew how ill he was. 3 Q. What about your reputation in the village you lived 4 in? Was there an impact on that? 5 A. Yes, there was, yes. I mean, the people who knew us 6 and friends of ours, they were fine. They just 7 couldn't get over it and they said, "Well, this is 8 ridiculous, I mean, how could the Post Office treat 9 you like this?" And the people at Llanbadarn and 10 Hundred House wrote to us and they said "Well, we just 11 don't understand this, how could they treat people 12 like this?" And at that time we didn't know that 13 there was hundreds, hundreds of postmasters, we just 14 didn't know, because they told us we were the only 15 ones. They said "Well, nobody else has got any 16 trouble with it, why should you have falls, you know, 17 if nobody else has got trouble?" 18 Q. What about your family? What impact did this have on 19 your family life? 20 A. I don't know. I mean, family rally round, don't they, 21 they kind of, you know, try to support you the best 22 they can and -- but they couldn't, you know, help. 23 They couldn't help. I mean, when we were really short 24 of money my eldest daughter lent us £9,000 to help 25 partly with the Post Office, to try and get it 49 1 straight, and also just to kind of -- just so that we 2 hadn't got to fret about having no money at all and, 3 you know -- I mean, most people who knew us, they were 4 fine. I mean, you know, they were just disgusted with 5 the Post Office treatment. 6 But there was others who didn't. I mean, you 7 know, they -- I mean, they kind of said "Oh, well, 8 there's no smoke without fire" and, you know, "They 9 must have been fiddling the books", as they called it. 10 And, you know, you can't do anything about that. You 11 know, if that's how they believe, they believe like 12 that, you know, so ... 13 Q. What would you like from the Post Office now? 14 A. I'd like them -- well, I'd just like them to kind of 15 own up that, you know, that somebody knew all along. 16 It took 20 years. You can't tell me that the same 17 people worked in the Post Office for 20 years. People 18 must have come and gone. Why didn't somebody raise 19 the alarm, unless they were all tied up with, kind of, 20 non-disclosures or something and ... you know. 21 I mean, I have, kind of, written out something 22 and I would like to read it if possible? 23 Q. Yes, please do. 24 A. I'll just have a drink first. 25 In 1868, Prime Minister William Gladstone said 50 1 that "Justice delayed is justice denied". He was 2 speaking about judicial process. I am applying it to 3 the Post Office. Their duplicity in delaying and 4 delaying the court action perpetrated the lie that the 5 subpostmasters were to blame for the shortfalls and 6 that there were no problems with the Horizon system. 7 And they continued to do so for 20 years, destroying 8 the lives of hundreds of subpostmasters and their 9 families, causing people to lose their livelihood, 10 homes, relationships and lives, and causing people to 11 think that they were alone in this nightmare. 12 The Post Office defence of the action by the 555 13 cost the taxpayer over £100 million because the 14 Post Office appealed every stage of the court action. 15 The Post Office and the Government must act now to pay 16 all the victims of the calculated and -- I can't even 17 say the word -- all the calculated lies of the 18 Post Office. Legal costs and funding costs must be 19 repaid equally to the 555 and an interim payment paid 20 without further delay to all the subpostmasters who 21 are still suffering today from the treatment of the 22 Post Office, and I imagine that they will do so for 23 the rest of their lives. 24 Please do not delay this financial injustice 25 while they wait for the ruling of this Inquiry and, 51 1 hopefully, the Inquiry will bring to justice the 2 people in the Post Office who covered up this 3 travesty. 4 Q. Is there anything else you wanted to say to the Chair? 5 A. I don't think so. I mean, I think the whole thing 6 just goes beyond angry. You just can't understand how 7 people could do this to other people, how they could 8 treat other people like this because they knew. They 9 knew all along. They still continued to do it. 10 I mean, that's obscene. 11 I don't think there's anything else. 12 MS KENNEDY: Thank you. I'm just going to turn to the 13 Chair. 14 Chair, do you have any questions? 15 Questions from SIR WYN WILLIAMS 16 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes. Mrs Bailey, I'd just like to ask 17 you, if I may, some more questions about you receiving 18 a caution because the Inquiry's heard lots of evidence 19 about people who have had criminal convictions but 20 I think you may be the first one we've heard from who 21 was cautioned, all right? 22 A. Yes. 23 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: So I'd like to understand the process 24 you went through. In March 2011 you were interviewed 25 under caution. I've understood that, yes? 52 1 A. Yes, yes. 2 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Then, as I've understood your evidence, 3 many months went by until November 2011 before you had 4 any other communication from the Post Office. 5 A. That's right. 6 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: That's right as well? 7 A. Yes. 8 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: So how did it come about that you were 9 cautioned? Who raised that as a possibility? 10 A. I don't know. I don't know. They just said "Could 11 you attend this other meeting, you know, with the 12 investigator", and that's the one in Newport, in 13 Shropshire, and I was on my own, and I went into the 14 room and he, basically -- I think it was Mr Bradshaw, 15 I think, and he kind of asked me again some of the 16 questions he asked me in the original interview and 17 then asked if I'd stolen the money and I said, "No, we 18 have not stolen any money at all", and so he said, 19 "Well, I'm going to -- I've got a caution here and I'm 20 going to caution you for" ... I can't remember the 21 word. What's the word? Making up the amount of money 22 I'd got. 23 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: False accounting. 24 A. Yes, false accounting. That's right. And he says, 25 "So I'm going to caution you for that". There was no 53 1 police involved. There was no police called -- 2 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Well, that's what I wanted to get at. 3 From what you tell me -- and I don't want to put words 4 into your mouth, so you must tell me if I've got it 5 wrong -- in March, there was no discussion about 6 a caution? 7 A. No, no. There was no -- 8 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: So trying to deduce what occurred, so 9 to speak, you must have received a letter in which you 10 were invited to another interview, and did that letter 11 make any reference to a caution? 12 A. No, no. No, it just said "a further interview". 13 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: All right. 14 A. A further interview. 15 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: But you're quite clear in your mind, 16 are you, that at that meeting in Newport, you were 17 actually -- well, there's a kind of little formal 18 process. You probably had to sign something, did you? 19 A. Yes, yes, I signed the caution. There was -- you 20 know, it required my signature at the bottom. 21 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Normally, when the police administer 22 a caution, they do so only after they are satisfied 23 that you are actually admitting that you had done 24 something wrong. Was there anything along those lines 25 on this occasion? 54 1 A. Do you mean actually on the caution itself or -- 2 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Or orally -- discussed orally? 3 A. I think I've got a copy of the caution here. 4 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Have you? Oh well, can I stop you 5 then, Mrs Bailey. Would you be good enough to send 6 a copy of the caution to me so I can examine it for 7 myself? 8 A. Yes. The solicitors have got a copy of it. 9 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thanks. That's great. That will 10 probably mean that I don't have to ask you any more 11 questions about it, so that's even better from your 12 point of view. 13 Thank you very much for your evidence, 14 Mrs Bailey, and I hope the weather's not too bad in 15 Mid Wales? 16 A. Well, the wind's dropped last night but we did have 17 a torrent -- we did have a raging river running 18 outside the house last night. 19 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Just so that I can picture where you 20 are, I'm right in thinking that Howey is just south of 21 Llandrindod Wells, on the way to Builth Wells, yes? 22 A. That's right, yes. We're about two miles from there, 23 yes. 24 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Well, thanks very much. Nice to meet 25 you. 55 1 A. Thank you, Sir Wyn. Nice to meet you. 2 MS KENNEDY: Chair, our next witness is Mr Christopher 3 Trousdale. I propose a 15-minute break and we would 4 come back at 11.55, if that would be suitable? 5 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: So the provisional timetable has 6 changed. We're going to deal with him next, are we? 7 MS KENNEDY: Yes. 8 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: That's fine by me. I'm just trying to 9 get myself orientated, so to speak. 10 MS KENNEDY: Yes. 11 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: So 12.05. 12 MS KENNEDY: Thank you. 13 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thanks everybody. 14 (11.39 am) 15 (A short break) 16 (12.04 pm) 17 MS KENNEDY: Good afternoon, Chair. Our next witness is 18 Christopher Trousdale. 19 CHRISTOPHER TROUSDALE (sworn) 20 Questioned by MS KENNEDY 21 MS KENNEDY: As I think you know, my name is Ruth Kennedy 22 and I ask questions on behalf of the Inquiry. Have 23 you got a copy of your witness statements there? 24 A. I do. 25 Q. It should be dated 26 January 2022? 56 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. If you turn to page 19, which I think is the last 3 page -- 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. -- is that your signature there? 6 A. It is. 7 Q. Have you read through this statement recently? 8 A. I have. 9 Q. Is it true to the best of your knowledge and belief? 10 A. There's a few spellings which I pointed out to you, 11 some names of people but, apart from that, it's true. 12 Q. I'm going to start by asking you a few introductory 13 questions about yourself. How old are you now? 14 A. 39. 15 Q. How long have you been with your wife? 16 A. 22 years. 17 Q. How many children do you have? 18 A. Two: one four and one eight. 19 Q. Your family have a long history of working in 20 a Post Office? 21 A. Longer than most. 150 years. It goes back to my 22 great grandmother, great grandfather, both 23 grandparents, my great aunt, and my mother. 24 Q. I think you mention in your statement that your 25 grandfather ran -- and you will have to help me with 57 1 the pronunciation -- 2 A. Lealholm. 3 Q. -- Lealholm Post Office? 4 A. For 40 years. 5 Q. He retired due to a heart condition; is that right? 6 A. Yes. The other businesses we ran as well, and he was 7 due for a heart operation, so he sort of took 8 retirement and the Post Office was passed to a lady 9 who worked for him and she ran it for a year. 10 Q. So he leased it to her, I think you say? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Then you decided to apply for that role; is that 13 right? 14 A. Well, yeah, I was studying at Newcastle College and 15 the plan wasn't to move back, actually, I was going to 16 stay and do my -- I was doing an HND and I was going 17 to stay and do my degree. And then the 18 subpostmistress tendered her registration, she was 19 moving on, and the Post Office, and there was 20 an associated petrol station and shop, was put up for 21 sale but all the people who wanted to buy it wanted to 22 close the Post Office. So our family had served the 23 community all those years so I thought it was 24 important to try and keep the office open. 25 Q. How old were you at that time? 58 1 A. 19. 2 Q. I think you mention in your statement you also started 3 a design business at that time? 4 A. Yes, so as part of the application, the Post Office 5 wanted to see that your business plan was viable to 6 take over the office, because the remuneration was 7 quite small so, as part of that, I was awarded a grant 8 from the Prince's Trust and started a small design 9 business, as well as the shop and the Post Office. 10 Q. You took over that Post Office in July 2002? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you know how your grandfather felt about you taking 13 over? 14 A. (Pause) I think proud would be the word. 15 Q. When you first started working for the Post Office, 16 what training did you receive? 17 A. Well, it was two weeks/ten days but, let's be clear, 18 that the lady who came to the office to train me, 19 I think at least five of those days were spent doing 20 tasks like reordering correct envelopes, replacing 21 manuals, ordering name badges, changing the point of 22 sale, lots of things like that weren't Horizon 23 training. And then, on top of that, there was 24 things -- your customer service training, looking 25 people in the eye, thank you, pleases, upselling 59 1 products. 2 So the actual Horizon training, of which the 3 majority of that was just selling things not actual 4 accountancy side, was three days and actual Horizon 5 accountancy training would be next to nothing. 6 Q. How adequate did you find that training? 7 A. Totally inadequate. I mean, I have friends who are 8 counter clerks at banks who were sent away for weeks 9 upon time to intensive training courses, who then were 10 shadowed intensively for weeks when they got to 11 a counter and then they were shadowed for another 12 six months after that, unintensively, and it sort of 13 should have rang alarm bells at the time but youthful 14 naiveté, maybe, I just thought this system's obviously 15 so good, that's what's needed. 16 Q. I think you did ask for more training at the time? 17 A. Absolutely, yes, I wasn't confident, especially the 18 balances. The first balance we did didn't balance and 19 I felt: well, hang on a minute, this -- you know, 20 what's going on here. And I asked for more and the 21 trainer just said "You're lucky you have got me for as 22 long as you have had me". 23 Q. Turning then to the alleged shortfalls. I think you 24 say in your statement that in 2003 you started to 25 notice discrepancies? 60 1 A. Yes. So they were not always shortfalls. So the 2 balance could be up or down. So it just didn't 3 balance either way. It wasn't all shortfalls and 4 I think even the first -- so even with -- the trainer, 5 called Helen, was sat over my shoulder for the first 6 week, watched every transaction, still didn't balance 7 on the times that she was there and, again, it should 8 have been red flags at the time but enthusiasm and 9 everything else took over and you think: well, I can 10 get through this and there's this fantastic support 11 line I've been told about, so that's there for me if 12 I need it. Yeah, if only it had been. 13 Q. How often did you notice those discrepancies, would 14 you say? 15 A. I don't think there was a week there wasn't 16 a discrepancy, up or down. 17 Q. What did you do when you noticed a discrepancy? 18 A. So my thought was: don't interfere with the 19 Post Office stock system, so leave it. If it's up, 20 don't take it out; if it's down, don't put in. Then 21 I know that I haven't taken or touched the Post Office 22 money, it's its own unit and that was my, sort of, way 23 forwards. 24 Q. I think you mention in your statement that the 25 discrepancies got worse; is that right? 61 1 A. Yes, yes, so the discrepancies built then you'd ring 2 the helpline -- well, I called it the "hell line" 3 because, if you could get through and if they hadn't 4 shut the line early, if you didn't get someone on the 5 other end of the phone who was just totally 6 frustrating and shouting at you or, you know -- or you 7 just cut out in the middle of the call, if they didn't 8 like what you were asking them. 9 And it was just, sort of, "How do I sort this 10 out?" And you got this message back all the time that 11 was either "You're the only one having this problem" 12 or "You'll just have to roll over and -- because you 13 have to be open tomorrow, you must be open tomorrow". 14 We balanced every week and there was no option of not 15 being open the day after, you know. 16 Q. How did you feel when the person on the helpline was 17 telling you that? 18 A. Frustration was -- I mean, a lot of the time it got to 19 anger, real anger, and I remember when we asked for 20 the records of my call logs to the helpline, in 21 various court cases, they wouldn't supply them. They 22 only actually supplied them when it got to the CCRC, 23 so they actually lied to me twice. First, they 24 refused to disclose the call logs to me in my initial 25 case. Then in the mediation with Howe & Co, and then 62 1 with the Freeths case in the High Court they still 2 said that they'd destroyed them and they weren't 3 there. 4 Then, miraculously, at the CCRC, this sheet 5 appeared with my call logs, 188 calls over the -- 6 well, 15 months, or whatever it was I was there, it's 7 about one every other day and, clearly, it says -- 8 this is their paperwork, it says "Related calls 9 request for contact with line manager, six related to 10 Horizon Issues, 155 to transaction issues, 29 related 11 to balancing enquiries". There's six other calls look 12 like they have been deleted. I would suggest that 13 those calls were where I was explicitly told to sign 14 the cash account and roll over. 15 Q. I'm just checking to see if we've been sent that. 16 Would you be prepared to -- 17 A. I'm sure it's in the disclosure pack but I'll make 18 sure that the solicitors -- Hudgells have been 19 fantastic; they'll send it to you afterwards. 20 Q. Thank you. I believe you were audited on 21 16 September 2003; is that right? 22 A. If I can just go back a step, actually, I think it 23 might be useful to the Inquiry that -- obviously, we 24 will get to the point where my mother took over the 25 office but, in 2009, which was years after I left the 63 1 office, she was also explicitly told to falsify 2 an account and roll over to open. Now, she having the 3 hindsight of -- having the benefit of the trouble I'd 4 been through, she made a log of that call so we 5 actually have that call reference, the time, the 6 person who told her and the copy of the cash account, 7 which she refused to sign. 8 So if that would be useful to the Inquiry, 9 I think that tape recording could be very enlightening 10 because I'm not the only one that was explicitly told 11 to falsify an account. 12 Q. Yes, please, I'm sure we would be very grateful to see 13 those. 14 So turning back to the audit, which I think was 15 on 16 September 2003? 16 A. Yes, people like to call it an audit but Kevin, the 17 young man that came to my office, I don't think he had 18 any qualifications, financial qualifications or 19 forensic accounting qualifications, or computer 20 programming qualifications. So when you say an 21 "audit", what you are actually saying is a person 22 turned up to press a few buttons on a faulty IT 23 system. 24 Q. How many of the purported auditors showed up? 25 A. Just Kevin to start with and then afterwards he was 64 1 joined by my area manager, Julia Stephenson obviously. 2 I remember the morning very vividly because my brother 3 was in my house, we had massive problems with power 4 cuts, and by brother wanted fuel from the petrol 5 station, which we were running at the same time and he 6 couldn't because the power was off. It had been off 7 for days previously and glitches, so I was in the 8 house, it was 50 yards from the office, so I knew when 9 the power came on in the house I could then walk over 10 the road, open the office. No point opening it 11 otherwise, not allowed to if the lights aren't on. 12 So I was sat in the office, we were having 13 a chat stood in the kitchen, lights flickered on, so 14 I walked over the road and there was a man stood on 15 the doorstep there and I thought: oh, this is 16 interesting. So my brother went and helped himself to 17 petrol and he went to work. And he announced himself 18 as the auditor and so I took him in the office and 19 I immediately said "Well, I'm absolutely glad you are 20 here because you can come and help me find out -- you 21 can do things on this system that I'm not allowed to 22 do or unable to do". 23 So as soon as he walked in I said "I think 24 you'll find there's £8,000 not showing on the 25 account". At that point, he then -- wheels were set 65 1 in motion, he rang the area manager who then appeared 2 rather quickly. 3 Q. What happened when the area manager arrived? 4 A. Well, this is where I started to be managed. So the 5 pair of them, without cautioning me, forced me to sign 6 a statement which was then produced against me as 7 a guilty, sort of, statement. Kevin stood over me 8 and, sort of, read back to me what he thought I'd told 9 him that morning and if you look -- I've got a copy of 10 the statement, and I've got beautiful handwriting 11 normally, it looks like a three-year old has written 12 it. Because the adrenaline was obviously flowing, 13 and, you know, there was obviously a bit of shock, and 14 things like that. 15 And, yes, so without cautioning me they forced 16 me to write a statement and then I remember making 17 a few noises to say "I think it might be worth me 18 ringing my parents or leaving the office", and then 19 Julia Stephenson started to usher me by cleverly 20 saying, "I tell you what", holding me, "just come and 21 sit here, I'll make you a cup of tea", putting herself 22 between me and the telephones in the back office 23 because they obviously didn't want me to involve 24 anyone else because they know, if I had, their little 25 plan that they usually run in these situations, would 66 1 have fallen apart. 2 So that's how the day, sort of, went and then 3 there was various things, then the auditor came into 4 the back room, Kevin, and he came and said "It's all 5 right, there's not £8,000 missing, I found what the 6 problem is", and I said "Is it to do with REMs", 7 because I thought I had a problem -- my cash 8 remittance was about £8,000. So I thought: there's 9 nothing else, there's no transactions that we handle 10 that are that big. So when you are looking for 11 a single thing and suddenly a figure jumps so high, 12 you think: what do we handle? You look for what's 13 that sort of -- roughly that figure. "My REMs are 14 8,000" and Kevin said "No, you haven't put your REMs 15 in, there's a REM bag here hasn't been included". 16 I thought "Thank goodness, it's all" -- I had 17 been awake for about 50 or 60 hours before this, the 18 night before, trying to find out what had happened, 19 paperwork everywhere, you know, every little slip 20 trying to go through it. Then, ten minutes later, 21 after he chatted to the area manager, oh no, suddenly 22 the REM was right and there was £8,000 missing, right. 23 So I said "Right, well, you tell me where it is 24 then because I haven't taken it". And then the area 25 manager said to me "We've got two system specialists 67 1 or specialists coming down, I think they're in 2 Scotland or Berwick, or somewhere up north, we will 3 have to wait for them to get here", four or five 4 hours, how ever long it took. So then they sort of 5 managed me all day, prevented me contacting anybody 6 and -- yeah, and then the investigators turned up and 7 things rolled on from there. 8 Q. What happened when the investigator showed up? 9 A. Sorry. So when the investigators came, first they 10 went into the office and they obviously were chatting 11 and they kept shutting the door to me so I couldn't 12 hear what they were saying and then they said "Oh, we 13 need to have a chat". I said "Oh, that's no problem 14 at all, I've got nothing to hide, let's have a chat". 15 I'm assuming they wanted to -- naively assumed they're 16 going to ask me about inputting certain things on the 17 computer, have I made sure this is right, have I done 18 things in the correct order. I thought these two 19 specialists had come to go through the computer. How 20 stupid I was. 21 So they said "We can't do it here", because of 22 the power was flickering, "Can we pop to your house?" 23 I said "Well, the power's the same but we can go over 24 there, if you want, that's fine". So went over to the 25 house, stupidly made them a nice cup of tea, and then 68 1 they were talking to me but they were very -- now, 2 I know what they were doing but, at the time, it 3 didn't seem that suspicious. 4 They talked to me but separately, so one would 5 be in the lounge, one was in the kitchen but, every 6 time they did, they'd make sure they keep shutting the 7 door. Now, I think that's so that they honestly 8 couldn't, if they were asked, say what the other 9 person was asking me or telling me. They were saying 10 things to me like "Now, you don't want to be -- you 11 don't want to look stupid here", you know and they 12 firmly reminded me that I'd sign the Official Secrets 13 Act, which just terrified me when they started talking 14 about that. 15 I thought "Hang on" and then, by this time, my 16 mind was just like jelly. They said "You've signed 17 the Official Secrets Act, so you are not allowed to 18 talk to anybody, anybody at all, about this", because 19 I'd been making noises about trying to contact, get 20 hold of my parents, Joanne, my wife, you know, this is 21 -- "I need to contact somebody", and they were very, 22 very clever in preventing me from getting anywhere 23 near a telephone. 24 So then the next thing, I was in the lounge with 25 one of them and the lounge door was shut -- I can 69 1 picture them in the chairs now, and one of them got up 2 and went out, and I don't know what he was doing, he 3 was a long time, I wonder if he was searching that 4 house without my permission in the areas that -- 5 because the lounge was right at the back of the house, 6 and then -- I mean, the car was 20 steps away from the 7 house. I think it took him about 15/20 minutes to 8 bring a tape recorder back. And they said "Oh, we're 9 just plugging this in because it saves having to 10 writing everything down, et cetera, et cetera. You 11 can have someone here but" -- I said "Excellent, fine, 12 yeah, I can have someone here", "But only if they are 13 another Post Office worker or, like, a colleague or 14 a union rep". I said "Well, I don't have any 15 colleagues, I work by myself in the Post Office, 16 there's only a few counter assistants but, you know". 17 "Oh, well, they can't come in, no". 18 So they wouldn't let me have my wife in, 19 obviously, so they said, "No, that's not allowed". 20 Then, yes, so they went through the Post Office 21 saying "You are not allowed" -- they reinforced "You 22 are not allowed to talk to anyone about this". Then 23 the tape recorder went on and they said "You've said 24 you don't want anyone here and you don't want 25 a solicitor". And at this point I'm thinking: well, 70 1 I'm not allowed to talk to anybody. So I said, "No, 2 well, obviously not", you know, so that was how we 3 proceeded. 4 All this time, they just kicked my wife out of 5 the house in the evening in the cold and just left her 6 outside. Obviously, she couldn't go to the 7 Post Office because they had taken the keys for that. 8 By this time, they had actually stripped the office, 9 and when I say "stripped it", they took every scrap of 10 Post Office paperwork -- and I'd like to say "take", 11 but they didn't, they stole, there's no warrant, all 12 of my personal trading invoices, bank statements, they 13 emptied the safe, which had a copy of my lease in it, 14 they took all of that away, and folded boxes full of 15 stuff. 16 They just stripped the office bear, never, ever 17 returned it, you know, we never got another sight of 18 it after that. 19 Then, obviously, the interview started. Now, 20 before the interview had started I'd been mentioning 21 this REM and this £8,000 because, to me, it was the 22 most likely area where a figure could have jumped that 23 big. It's the only transaction we could handle that 24 was that sort of size was a remittance, coming into 25 the office. And, obviously, we were talking about 71 1 that REM pouch and things like that, and then they 2 sort of said "Right, before we start the interview, 3 tell me about this REM pouch, et cetera, et cetera". 4 Okay, we'll do that then, I was just doing what I was 5 being told, you know. 6 At some point, I thought: we're going to get on 7 to them asking me about the inputs into the machine, 8 look at my log-ons, look at the cash accounts, look 9 that the balances for the recent few weeks. Of 10 course, they weren't interested in that at all. So 11 they started, and I started to tell them about this 12 pouch that I think I might have lost, have I thrown it 13 in the bin, so many things going through my mind, 14 because the only message the helpline reinforced was 15 "It will turn up, if there's an error we've got this 16 system which finds it, it will come back as 17 a correction, an error notice, up or down". 18 And you think: right, so this is obviously how 19 the system works, you know, if the computers done 20 something wrong, they have got this back end which 21 finds this and then corrects your office. So you 22 think it's going to come back. 23 And then in the interview I said "Right, well, 24 we'll start off with this REM pouch, might have lost 25 this REM pouch", as one of the possibilities, because 72 1 I didn't know what happened. And then they turned 2 that round and said -- they then turned round to say 3 that I was trying to lie about this REM pouch. I said 4 "Hang on a minute", and then it all went downhill from 5 there. They started mentioning -- it was Tony 6 Robertson and Jude Trotter, and I've got this 7 pervasive image of her sat in my great-grandma's 8 chair, she looked a bit like a witch with -- awful. 9 I can't get it out of my head unfortunately. 10 They started -- she started asking me about 11 docket fraud. I didn't even know what docket fraud 12 was. I was 19. 13 She said "We found these docket slips in the 14 till drawer", and I said "Right, well, they're part of 15 the cash", because the office when the power went out 16 you couldn't scan the barcode but I could still accept 17 the docket, pay the cash out, and then when the power 18 comes back on, you can then input them. So that 19 docket, face value, is cash, which I paid out. 20 So the second the area manager removed them from 21 the stock unit and passed them to an investigator, she 22 instantly created over £400 deficit at that moment. 23 So they had them in the interview, in my house, these 24 dockets "What are these here for?" I said "They're 25 just some dockets that need putting on the system 73 1 because the power's been off". They wouldn't have 2 that. They started asking about giro fraud, docket -- 3 I didn't know what they were talking about. 4 Q. Mr Trousdale, just at that moment, I've got a message 5 from the transcriber, just asking if you can slow down 6 slightly. 7 A. I do apologise, my blood is boiling, and I'll -- 8 Q. Totally understood, but no, no, don't apologise, but 9 if you could, just slightly slower. Sorry, you were 10 going on to say something else. 11 A. Yes, so then it just went on to "You've taken this 12 money, where is it? Have you got a nice big posh 13 car?" "I don't have a driving licence". "Where have 14 you been on holiday?" "I've just come out of 15 university and I've just started work for you guys, 16 I haven't been on holiday anywhere". "Do you gamble, 17 do you drink?" "No, what's this got to do with the 18 computer system?" 19 And it just went on from there, you know. 20 "Where's this money?" I said "Look in my bank 21 accounts, do whatever you want, I haven't got any 22 money, you've got it or your system has it". 23 And it I just went bad to worse, unfortunately, 24 that interview and, afterwards, I felt so stupid that 25 I'd let them trick me, and coerce me and manage me, 74 1 you know. They must have been very proud of 2 themselves. They must have left there giggling in the 3 cars about how they'd managed to do me over. And, to 4 this day, I look back with a bit of terror. 5 Q. What were you diagnosed with after that interview? 6 A. So I went to the doctors, it was acute stress reaction 7 and PTSD. 8 Q. I think, to clarify, you were suspended that day as 9 well? 10 A. Yes, the area manager suspended me from that moment, 11 yes. 12 Q. You were then interviewed, I think, at Whitby police 13 station on 16 October 2003? 14 A. So before that happened, they came back to the village 15 to collect the alleged shortfall, which my parents had 16 to remortgage their house to get the cash, and we had 17 to do it in the Post Office, which there was no power 18 on, once again, no power to the office. So they 19 couldn't conduct another interview at Lealholm because 20 there was no power on again. The power issues in the 21 village were that bad that a year after I was 22 prosecuted, they had to take the whole village off the 23 National Grid for a year, onto generators and replace 24 all the infrastructure. That's how big the problem 25 was. I have the ticket number from the power company, 75 1 actually, because years after, I wrote to them and 2 said "Can you just confirm this", and she said "Oh, 3 yes, it was" -- the guy who actually planned the 4 budget wrote back to me and said it was a year on 5 generators, that's how bad the power was. 6 Yes, so, it's -- they then had to take me to the 7 police station because they couldn't plug their tape 8 recorder in Lealholm, no power, and, at that point, 9 I wasn't fit for interview at all but they still -- 10 they didn't care. They weren't interested in any 11 regulations or rules or PACE, or anything likely that. 12 They were a law unto themselves, so they took me 13 to the police station at Whitby and I had to be booked 14 in by the duty sergeant, he asked me a few questions. 15 I told him, I said "I shouldn't be here, I was 16 medicated by the doctor", and I forgot the name of the 17 drugs now but, if you look at the side effects of the 18 drugs, I think I had 90 per cent, I had such 19 an adverse effect, it affected my vision, everything. 20 It was absolutely horrendous and I said to him 21 "I'm on these tablets, I can't think straight, I can't 22 talk straight" and the Post Office man looked at him 23 and said "That's what we do, it's all right". He 24 just, this sergeant, stood there said "Oh, well, off 25 you go then". At that point, a duty solicitor had 76 1 been called for me, who I think was probably more used 2 to dealing with breaches of the peace and drunk and 3 disorderly, certainly not an intensive case like the 4 Post Office were admitting -- or alleging I'd done. 5 Q. Did you feel properly supported at all during that 6 interview? 7 A. Oh no, I don't think the solicitor spoke in the whole 8 interview. I think I had 10/20 seconds with him 9 before. They didn't give any prior disclosure, they 10 didn't say to him "This is the evidence we're going to 11 put to him", or anything like that. It was literally 12 he was seeing it as they were putting it to me in the 13 police station interview room. 14 Q. Can you describe what happened at that interview? 15 A. Yes, so they had some sheets of paper which were 16 spreadsheets, nothing like we're used to seeing off 17 the Horizon system. We used to get big long columns 18 and A4 printouts. And they had this spreadsheet that 19 they had obviously cobbled together themselves and 20 they put them under my nose and say "this date here, 21 eight months ago, is this a true figure?" I'm like, 22 "I don't know". 23 And, again, very clever semantics. They'd -- 24 and repetitive as well. They'd ask me a question and 25 say "Well, is this an accurate figure", I said "Well, 77 1 it could have been up, it could have been down". "Was 2 it a shortfall?" "I don't know, I couldn't tell you". 3 Then they'd keep repeating a sentence but then drop 4 a word, maybe, every time they repeated it, up until 5 the point I was just at the end saying "Well, it might 6 have been yes, just yes, whatever, I don't want to be 7 here" and, you know. In the end, of course, if you 8 read all of their internal paperwork "Oh, he admitted 9 this, he admitted that", "Look at the interviews, 10 I didn't, I just wanted you out of there". 11 At one point he said "You have asked for 12 a solicitor". If you read the transcribe, I thought 13 he was a solicitor, one of the other investigators 14 I hadn't seen before. Didn't even know who I was 15 talking to. It even says "I am talking to a 16 solicitor, I was facing him over the table", and my 17 solicitor was sat next to me on this side and, you 18 know, it was just horrendous. 19 Q. How did you feel after that interview? 20 A. By that time, I probably didn't feel anything at all. 21 Q. What did you expect would happen after that interview? 22 A. Well, I think they clearly said "Then we're going to 23 prosecute you", and I was absolutely just -- 24 I still -- it was so fanciful the -- you know, the 25 scenario and I think I'd been told to sign these cash 78 1 accounts, they told me to roll over, you know, they 2 said I cannot open the office the day after unless you 3 roll over, and one of the calls I said "Where am 4 I going to get this much money? I don't drive. I'm 5 about 12 miles away from a bank. Where do you expect 6 me to go and get this?" "Oh, well, you will just have 7 to say it's there and roll over and a correction 8 notice will come through in a couple of weeks". 9 So that's what I thought this system ran like, 10 if you like, but, you know, again, now it would be 11 a different story. You would question things but, at 12 the time, you think: well, you know just what we have 13 to do. 14 Q. What did they prosecute you with? 15 A. So they prosecuted me for false accounting, and I was 16 going to plead not guilty, right -- I think it was 17 right even up to the first court hearing in Whitby 18 Magistrates' Court I think I was going to plead not 19 guilty and then the -- it was Newbys Solicitors of 20 Town Hall, Guisborough came in and spoke to my 21 barrister. So the solicitors company had then gone to 22 the top man in the -- sorry, it was a solicitor, at 23 the time, my solicitor, Nick Tubbs. He said "They've 24 come forwards and they've said if you don't" -- unlike 25 the others who got a plea bargain, I was threatened. 79 1 So they said "If you don't plead guilty, we're going 2 to add the theft charge and escalate it to the Crown 3 Court and you can be facing seven years in jail". So 4 at the Magistrates' Court, you know the maximum they 5 can do, they said "If you don't plead guilty, we're 6 going to add a theft charge, and there's 14 charges 7 held on account, and we're going to escalate to the 8 Crown Court". So I didn't have any choice. 9 Everyone just looked at me and said "You can't 10 go to jail, especially with this, when you haven't 11 done anything". 12 Q. I think you mention that one of those hearings, the 13 Post Office accepted that the alleged shortfall figure 14 was false; is that right? 15 A. Yes. So before that even I was promised that this 16 Tony Robertson wouldn't appear and at one of the cases 17 he decided it was in my best interest for him to 18 appear and put me under stress and pressure. And, 19 unfortunately, I was carted off in an ambulance 20 because my legal team said "He shouldn't be anywhere 21 near, at all, the court. If he's not giving evidence, 22 he doesn't need to be there". But he decided to turn 23 up anyway. That's how nasty they were. 24 Yes, so, in court, bearing in mind I'd never 25 been given a contract, the only thing I'd ever signed 80 1 was three or four pages of the Official Secrets Act, 2 you had a brief sheet, sort of, saying roughly what 3 your contract is and the first time we had seen 4 an actual full contract was when it was supplied to my 5 solicitor in disclosure. My solicitor held this 6 contract up, quarter of an inch thick, and the 7 bench -- I remember his name, his name was Neil, on 8 the Magistrates' bench. He said "Can I have a look at 9 that?" He got this contract and he looked through it 10 and he looked back at the legal team puzzled and he 11 said "Should we be here? Surely this is a matter of 12 breach of contract? There's no evidence of theft". 13 And the Post Office solicitor stood up and just 14 said "No, I can assure you this is right". 15 Absolutely -- at that point, I thought I'm rescued, 16 finally someone has seen that I should not be sat in 17 this seat, and that didn't happen either. 18 So then I actually managed to speak in court, 19 which I shouldn't have done, and I asked my solicitor 20 in open court "Can you please ask the Post Office 21 solicitors have I stolen anything?" and they admitted 22 in court that there was no theft, even though they 23 threatened me with a theft charge just the last 24 hearing or two. 25 I then also asked them, I said -- this audit 81 1 figure here, they had inflated by 15 per cent. So 2 they had provided -- they had created a false account 3 for the court, I think to increase the severity. 4 So the auditor, good old Kevin, when he was in, 5 had pulled the cash drawer out and, when my mother had 6 taken over, she'd pulled it a little bit further and, 7 in the back, was foreign currency he hadn't counted 8 and stamps he hadn't counted. Fair enough. 9 And then there was these dockets, and cheques on 10 hand. So I had taken a cheque for a service, so 11 that's effectively a cash figure. Instead of 12 deducting those from the audit figure, they added 13 them. And the £400-odd of dockets, instead of 14 deducting those, they added them on too. Then they 15 also refused to deduct the cash and the stamps that 16 had been found in the till drawer afterwards, as well. 17 None of those funds were ever returned to me, by 18 the way, so they admitted in court, and they said at 19 the next hearing -- because then it had to go for 20 pre-sentence -- pre-sentencing report, or whatever. 21 So the next hearing they promised that they would 22 present the correct account, having already provided 23 a false one to the court. They never did. They were 24 a power to themselves. Even the courts couldn't make 25 the Post Office do what they wanted. They were 82 1 literally their own law. 2 Q. I think you were then convicted of false accounting on 3 8 March 2004; is that right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What sentence did you receive? 6 A. It was community service, a fine and a year's 7 probation. 8 Q. Your conviction has been quashed? 9 A. It was in December '19. 10 Q. I'm now going to ask you some questions about the 11 impact that all of this has had on you. You 12 mentioned -- dealing firstly with financial impact, 13 you mentioned previously about borrowing money from 14 your parents. What other financial losses have you 15 suffered? 16 A. You can't really quantify it over 20 years. Even 17 little things, like getting insurance, you have to go 18 to the underwriters, if you can get it. Even if my -- 19 you know, they put the premiums up on things that you 20 need, even getting a bank account, you can't get, you 21 have to be given a basic bank account with higher 22 charges, and you're not allowed a current account, 23 because you have got a criminal record. There's all 24 sorts of things. This massive amount of money I had 25 to pay back my family, I still owe some of it. You 83 1 think: when will this ever stop following me, you 2 know, and it never does. 3 Q. How much do you still owe people? 4 A. I don't know the exact figure but it was, including 5 interest, I think it was about £19,000 I had to borrow 6 off my parents, a big chunk of that was to give the 7 Post Office alleged shortfall and then, obviously, 8 just to cover life, rent and bills at home, and things 9 like that. And then there's, oh, all sorts of other 10 help I've had off people, which ... you just can't 11 quantify. 12 Q. What about the business itself? 13 A. So the business was just, sort of, taken away from me, 14 if you like. Not taken away, but I was just removed 15 from it by them. So after I committed this heinous 16 crime, in their eyes, the most arm's length person 17 they could ask to go and watch the Post Office was my 18 mother, which didn't -- at the time -- all this just 19 doesn't add up, does it? Then my poor old Mum, she 20 was in a well paid job, she was a manager in 21 a canteen, so she came to keep the office open, took 22 some holidays and she thought it would just be 23 a short-term thing because all of the indications from 24 the Post Office were this is going to get sorted. 25 And, of course, constantly we're asking "You 84 1 tell us -- we'll pay for the forensic accountants, if 2 you want, you just tell us we'll pay for it, no 3 problem because this needs to be sorted out". This is 4 before the trials, obviously. And, of course, after 5 all the family history, my Mum didn't want the office 6 to close either, so she ended up staying and, 7 obviously, she went from a job with holidays, holiday, 8 sick pay, pension, et cetera, et cetera, took a pay 9 cut and has been stuck in a Post Office ever since. 10 Q. How did you feel about your mother taking over the 11 Post Office from you? 12 A. Again, my naiveté, the only thing we wanted the office 13 open for was the village. The village was such a nice 14 -- it's a rural idyll. It's right in the middle of 15 the North Yorkshire Moors, I think the Sunday Times 16 called it the "prettiest village in England" and the 17 community was brilliant. We thought "Well, we fought 18 all these years, we served all these years, let's not 19 let this wreck it". It wasn't for the Post Office's 20 benefit, it was for the village's benefit, and you 21 think: well, you just -- I do not know, what went 22 through their minds I don't know. 23 Q. What did you do for work? 24 A. So, to start with, obviously initially afterwards, 25 there was no work and then the local landlord offered 85 1 me some shifts, just ad hoc casual work. So I sort of 2 got back into there. A few years after, I sort of 3 worked in the kitchens in the pub and things like 4 that, and I did a few years like that and then, as 5 time went on, family encouraged me to pick up the 6 design work again, so I started picking up a bit of 7 that. And then, eventually, I was lucky, my Dad ran 8 a small printing business and he said "Well, come and 9 do the design work for us", and we sort of, over the 10 years, I just sort of naturally merged, if you like. 11 You know, we sort of went down that route and I'm glad 12 actually. 13 I didn't sign on, I didn't want to be a burden 14 on the state but so many more of my colleagues haven't 15 had that ability to go into work, so I do feel -- 16 "lucky" is a weird word to use but I feel lucky, if 17 you like, that I had an opportunity to be able to 18 start paying my own bills again. 19 Q. You have already mentioned some of the impacts that 20 this has had on your mental health. What impact or 21 continuing impact does it have? 22 A. I don't think you'll speak to a person in this Inquiry 23 that it won't be with them forever. 24 I just hope that the Post Office ... it's -- my 25 brother came up with a good analogy. Trying to 86 1 explain it to people: imagine your house has burnt 2 down, "Oh, you left a candle on by the curtain", "But 3 I didn't have any candles in the house, it was this 4 magical dragon appeared and burnt my house down". It 5 was a fiction as far fetched as that the Post Office 6 could like and then cover it up for all these years 7 and then when they even explicitly were told the truth 8 by external auditors, continued to cover it up and not 9 at that point say, "oh, your conviction's unsafe". 10 They let us suffer for longer -- even now, you 11 can read the Post Office dribble that they put out and 12 you think: you've got no contrition, you've got no 13 remorse, you're just in brand protection 101 mode, 14 that's all you're interested in. You just think: just 15 put the victims first, for once. That's all we want. 16 Q. How do you feel about yourself now? 17 A. I don't know. The battle has kept us going, I think. 18 The fight for justice. Alan, obviously, formed the 19 JFSA and, oh, the first meeting I went 20 into ... I walked into this little village hall, after 21 being told I was the only one this ever happened to, 22 and -- 23 It was funny actually, there was a friend of my 24 Mum, she had heard from a wholesaler of hers that his 25 son-in-law in Bridlington, which is a town just down 87 1 the coast, this is a few years afterwards, having 2 problems, and would -- then looked into it and heard 3 about this JFSA, and I walked into the village hall 4 and I looked round and I just thought: these just look 5 like my grandparents because of most of the 6 subpostmasters had retirement jobs, et cetera, I was 7 once of the exceptions, being so young. And I looked 8 around and I thought: are these all ... oh. The 9 weight just lifted and I thought it's not just me. 10 They have lied. This is disgusting, you know. And 11 then the support was excellent and I think that's 12 what's kept everyone going is the truth always comes 13 out, always comes out. It's just taken 20 years for 14 it to get there. 15 Q. I think you mention in your statement that you feel 16 like your personality is different now? 17 A. Oh, yes, it's just suspicion of most things and people 18 and, like, hyper-vigilance, things like that. Never 19 go away. It's absolutely draining sometimes. 20 Sometimes it's been an advantage to be so fastidious 21 about things and careful but, other times, you just 22 think I just wish I could let loose and be my old 23 self. 24 Q. I think you also mention in your statement about the 25 impact it's had on your physical health as well? 88 1 A. Yes. Before -- I mean, when I was at college and just 2 before I took over, I was playing rugby, swimming, 3 running, weight lifting, you name it. I did swim 4 sprint for the county, I was a sprinter for the 5 county, I threw discus, things like that. I was very, 6 very fit and then, when you don't want to go out 7 afterwards, it just disappears. 8 Q. You have touched on this a moment ago when you said 9 you didn't want to go out. What impact has this had 10 on your social life? 11 A. Well, we always made an effort every New Year's 12 Eve ... we make an effort to go out -- because it 13 would signal another year on from it. 14 Sorry. 15 Q. What's happened to those New Year's drinks? 16 A. Well, that's the one thing we tried to keep going and, 17 obviously, when we started, when we figured out the 18 Post Office were this massive pack of lying hounds, 19 this sort of battle took over. So for a few years, 20 not immediately after, but years after, we thought: 21 well, let's celebrate getting another year past. 22 Q. I think prior to all of this you mention in your 23 statements you used to be quite social and go for 24 Christmas drinks with friends? 25 A. Yes. All that stopped because you'd get snide remarks 89 1 off people, even five, six, seven years after, snide 2 remarks. Even when I worked in a new job, you'd go 3 and see a customer and he'd say, "Oh you're so and 4 so", and you think: oh, it won't ever leave me, you 5 know. It was in the papers, and all that sort of jazz 6 and you just think, oh. And so, in the end, you think 7 I just can't be bothered with the hassle. I can't be 8 bothered trying to tell them this tale about the 9 fantastical dragon that didn't exist. So you think 10 it's just easier to stay in. 11 Q. What snide remarks would you hear? 12 A. Just, you know, sort of "Oh, have you got a new car 13 outside, have you been on any nice holidays", same 14 sort of things, you know. "Aren't you the guy that 15 lost all that money", and things like that. So you 16 just think, well, you know. 17 Q. What about your family. How did this impact on the 18 relationship with your grandfather? 19 A. Well, let me start somewhere else. So my little 20 brother was still at school, he would get all sorts of 21 comments at school. Obviously, my poor old Mum, who 22 took the office over, she got stress-triggered 23 rheumatoid arthritis and she was diagnosed with PTSD 24 as well. 25 (Pause) 90 1 And then my wife, she was also dragged to 2 a police station by the Post Office and interviewed, 3 against her will, and "You have to come, you must 4 come", you know. So she had that to deal with. And 5 then she was diagnosed with about four or five 6 stress-triggered autoimmune conditions. (Pause) 7 And then, yeah, my maternal grandfather, who'd 8 run the office, he was a Post Office man, 9 unfortunately, so he sort of thought: how can this 10 glowing organisation, the jewel of the British Crown, 11 how could they possibly lie? If they say the computer 12 system's working, it's working. So that was it for me 13 and him, really. We ... 14 I do apologise. 15 Q. Please, don't apologise. Do let me know if you would 16 like a moment. 17 I think it's right, isn't it, that your 18 grandfather died before your conviction was quashed? 19 A. Yes. So that's one of the biggest tragedies. 20 Q. What do you mean by "tragedy"? How does it make you 21 feel? 22 A. I think you can probably understand. But for him, he 23 wasn't around long enough to hear even the truth come 24 out in the high courts, reading internal documents and 25 then even -- even after the High Court where they came 91 1 to the settlement and they still even then hadn't 2 disclosed other evidence which was pertinent to all 3 our cases -- which, in my view, makes the 555 4 settlement totally unjust -- and then when we get to 5 the High Court, suddenly what's this Clarke advice? 6 What's it? Oh, you did know about the -- why didn't 7 you tell us that when we were in the High Court when 8 you're supposed to be open and honest. So he didn't 9 get to hear any of that either. You know, he didn't 10 get to see that -- he didn't get to see that these 11 people were systematically -- I mean, I would even say 12 it was a conspiracy. It was that far. 13 The investigators -- I mean, I read somewhere 14 that they were incentivised for results. I mean, you 15 basically turned them into bounty hunters on 16 commission. How is that even a thing in the British 17 justice system? They absolutely destroyed people's 18 faith in justice system and if he had seen that 19 outrage, I think that would have helped. 20 Q. What compensation have you received so far? 21 A. So from the High Court case, I think I got awarded 22 12,000-something and there was another balance, a 23 little balancing payment, afterwards and, again, I 24 just used that to -- well, some of the money I went to 25 put straight back into the campaign because we knew it 92 1 wasn't the end. We knew they were still lying. We 2 knew there's some coming up, so I put a couple of 3 thousand into the ongoing campaign and the rest I just 4 started paying people back. 5 Q. What would you like from the Post Office now? 6 A. You'll have to bear with me. I beg your indulgence. 7 There's a few points I'd like to make. 8 Q. Please. 9 A. Just going back actually into my -- just a bit back, 10 there's -- the investigators (indicated) never 11 investigated, like the police would be forced to do. 12 Even if someone admits to a murder, the police still 13 have to go and check those facts and check that 14 they're not being forced to admit to a murder. The 15 investigators never, ever -- you can look at all the 16 internal paperwork -- investigated the system. They 17 didn't look that power cut problems the office was 18 having. They didn't look at the communication. BT 19 had to put a second ISDN line into my office because 20 at that point there was two lines we had. I think we 21 had four lines into the office because the 22 communication was that bad. 23 After my Mum took over, the computer system was 24 "replaced" and you think why was none of this -- why 25 didn't they investigate the system? Why did they only 93 1 look at the subpostmasters? And I think the answer is 2 it was cheaper and easier and they were being 3 incentivised maybe. And you think, well, if 4 investigators aren't performing their duty as an 5 investigator and then as a prosecutor -- you think, 6 well, surely when we get to these High Court cases -- 7 and then -- oh. Sorry, I digress. It beggars belief. 8 Right. After -- sorry, bear with me. 9 After a few years, the area manager (that was my 10 area manager became my mother's area manager) came 11 back to the office after she'd left the Post Office, 12 I suggest out of guilt, and she told my Mum that she 13 was sorry what they'd done to me -- and I'm going to 14 use a swear, I apologise, but I'm quoting. She said: 15 "That Tony Robertson was a bastard who loved his 16 job too much and no-one at the Post Office liked him." 17 And why would she make the effort to go all that 18 way back after she's left the Post Office to see my 19 Mum and apologise? My Mum was that paranoid when she 20 took over the office instead of balancing once a week, 21 she balanced every day because she was that afraid of 22 this system. There was one occasion where she had 23 a deficit which was exact amount of the foreign 24 currency to the penny that she had experienced. So 25 when she rang the area manager, they agreed that was 94 1 the problem, that must be what it is. They didn't 2 investigate. They just said, "You have to pay the 3 money back". So this was -- this continued. This 4 wasn't just isolated to me. I want to sort of paint 5 the picture that when I left, the problems didn't 6 leave with me, they kept on going. 7 The helpline: I would suggest that they're very 8 complicit in this scandal. And when we talk about 9 "Horizon IT system" I want everyone to realise that 10 that system included human teams as part of that 11 system as the feedback loops, in the error notice and 12 transaction corrections, and the helpline. So we're 13 not just talking about a computer system that went 14 wrong; we're also talking about the human teams within 15 that IT system that went wrong or were complicit or 16 did things on purpose. 17 I have a weird survivor's guilt now as well, as 18 well as the guilt of being stupid and all the things 19 that's happened to my family. You have a -- I think 20 33 people have died before receiving anything like 21 compensation or their names cleared, and that figure's 22 only going to go up if there's a delay. 23 I'd also like to say that one evening I was 24 carted off to the police station after I was convicted 25 to have my DNA fingerprints taken from me forcefully, 95 1 and they said it: if I didn't comply, it would be 2 forcefully because they had the right to do it 30 days 3 after any conviction. I was then kicked out of a 4 police station at 12 at night with no phone, no money, 5 12 miles from home. 6 So I think the police need to look at themselves 7 and I would suggest that no private prosecutions 8 should be allowed to use police premises. The 9 Post Office investigators did that to intimidate 10 people. I'm absolutely sure of it. They wanted 11 people to believe that they were the police or bigger 12 than the police. They bullied the police. We've 13 heard it in lots of witness statements where they just 14 "you've got to charge them, you've got to do this". 15 So one of my suggestions is that police infrastructure 16 should never be allowed to be used for private 17 prosecutions. 18 This takes me on to something else: the Director 19 of the Public Prosecutions and the Justice Select 20 Committee. I think it's incomprehensible that 21 a private prosecution can be brought from someone who 22 is both a victim, the investigator, and the 23 prosecutor. How can that happen in this day and age? 24 I would like to see the creation of a private 25 prosecution register because if there had been one 96 1 when I was -- my solicitors would have been able to do 2 a quick search, hang on a minute, look at all these 3 other Post Office cases all been told they're the only 4 one. My prosecution would never have gone ahead. 5 I'd also like that any private prosecution in 6 the future is automatically passed to the DPP and at 7 which he point he can allow it to go forward; he can 8 refuse it because, like our cases, they were just a 9 total malicious affront to the public conscience that 10 should never have been anywhere near a court. They 11 abused the court system more than anything you'll 12 effort read about, I think, in our lifetimes. 13 And -- or he could strip it from them and pass 14 it to the CPS and the police, so that proper 15 oversight, proper investigation and a proper decision 16 could be made about prosecution, unlike what the 17 Post Office did. 18 To the Inquiry, I'd like to make a suggestion. 19 Mr Beer started calling the Post Office "POL". I was 20 prosecuted by the Royal Mail. There's been Consignia 21 and various legal guises of what "the Post Office" is, 22 but they are the Post Office. They're not POL. The 23 public don't know what POL is. Sorry, bear with me. 24 They're not Voldemort. We can name them. They 25 always have been, and they are, the Post Office. 97 1 They're not POL to many people -- certainly not to me. 2 They're the Post Office. So that's one thing I would 3 like you to consider, is call them the "Post Office" 4 because that's who they are and that's what did the 5 wrong. 6 When I was prosecuted, Adam Crozier was the 7 Chairman or the Chief Executive. I read in a BBC 8 Telegraph article that a few years before he took over 9 he admitted falsifying sales figures and he was let 10 off for youthful indiscretion. This is the same man 11 that then decided for a few thousand pounds that 12 I should be prosecuted and destroy my life. I think 13 he should be here answering questions, as well as all 14 the other heads of Post Office. I don't think there's 15 one that can be allowed to get away from this. This 16 has happened for 20 years. 17 To the Federation, the National Federation. 18 Now, when I first contacted the Federation, they 19 advised me to write letters of contrition to get my 20 job back. They formatted the letters and, if you read 21 them, they're a load of dribble. But they were then 22 used against me as a sign of guilt. Those letters 23 were presented as a sign of guilt. The NFSP (who 24 obviously we all know now has been stripped because 25 they're not a proper union), I think that the minimum 98 1 they should be doing is paying back all of the 2 subscriptions to the subpostmasters that have been 3 affected. And I think they should be disbanded 4 actually. I think they're too -- too closely wound up 5 with this whole scandal to survive it. 6 Specifically to the Post Office: I want you to 7 remove onerous threats, NDAs, gagging clauses from any 8 of your serving or past staff because I know the 9 reason that people haven't come forward like we want 10 them to, and we've -- as the JFSA, we've had these 11 people come to us and say, "I've got this information. 12 We can't say it because we've been threatened". If 13 you really, really are wanting to get this behind you, 14 let those people come forward: the investigators, the 15 helpline staff, the investigators. Let them tell us 16 what they know because without that we're not going to 17 get to the bottom of this. 18 I'd like to know -- I think from the evidence 19 I've seen -- this is my submission of the situation -- 20 but the Post Office bosses were paid bonuses based on 21 performance. And we all know that the Post Office 22 were operating suspense accounts into the millions, 23 massive suspense accounts, which were either 24 postmasters' money, failed two-sided transactions, and 25 I'm pretty sure in saying that, from my understanding, 99 1 that those suspense accounts were added to the profit 2 and loss accounts of the Post Office, therefore 3 inflating the performance figures, therefore inflating 4 the bonuses that the top staff were getting. Victims' 5 money, in my opinion, was going into the pockets of 6 those that had persecuted them -- directly nearly. 7 I'd like a proper answer from them about how 8 their investigators were incentivised. I want to know 9 whether it was something to do with promotions, 10 bonuses, remuneration, but I think that should be 11 investigated properly. I want to know why they 12 approached the High Court cases with such disregard 13 for openness. And I also want to know when our 14 convictions were overturned why they felt it necessary 15 to stand up in court and read out all of the guilty 16 things they thought we were in court just before our 17 convictions were quashed, when a lot of that evidence, 18 as we know, was gleaned from nefarious ways. 19 Finally, I'm going to be a bit flippant but 20 there is a serious point. I'd like to make an offer 21 of money to the Post Office. Don't all fall off your 22 chairs, but I'd like Nick Read to put on the wall of 23 all these people dealing with these historic thingies 24 their strap line, with a slight amendment: 25 "Helping our victims to get life's important 100 1 things done." 2 I want that put on every wall because until they 3 put that on every wall and put the victims first (not 4 themselves, not their solicitors, not the Treasury, 5 and not the Government), until the victims are put 6 first this is never going to go away. We will be 7 a thorn in their side ad infinitum. They will never 8 get closure, they'll never be able to privatise it, 9 they'll never be able to move on unless they put the 10 victims first. And I think, even now, with the fake 11 photocopy apology we got and things like that, 12 everything you read, there's still -- people haven't 13 got interim payments. They're still hanging on to 14 these shreds of notes that were written up by 15 investigators, of them being interpreted, interpreted, 16 "Oh, they're guilty. Look, he admitted this, this, 17 this, this and this". But none of its true because 18 the Horizon system was spitting out figures that just 19 didn't add up. And until they put the victims first, 20 I don't think we can ever, ever move forwards. 21 My last point is we've seen in -- I think 22 there's been 700 prosecutions, the High Court cases, 23 the failed mediation and the quashings that I don't 24 know how many judges or magistrates that involves, but 25 we know that in most of those cases the Post Office 101 1 were not forthcoming. They didn't give full 2 disclosure. 3 So hope this Inquiry has the teeth to force that 4 evidence out of them because I know, from personal 5 experience, that they will try and hide it. 6 That's all I've got to say thanks. 7 Q. Is there anything else you wanted to say? 8 A. That's all, thanks. 9 MS KENNEDY: I'll just turn to the Chair to see if he has 10 any questions for you. 11 Do you have any questions, Chair? 12 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Just one question, please. When 13 Ms Kennedy was asking you about compensation, you 14 mentioned the compensation from the civil proceedings 15 but obviously, because your conviction is quashed, you 16 may have made an application for an interim payment. 17 What is your position on that? 18 A. Yes, let me be clear, Sir Wyn. So I didn't actually 19 receive any compensation from the High Court. It was 20 the JFSA gifted us a proportion because we went in 21 with an all-for-one attitude to start with. 22 So in the High Court they specifically said, 23 "We're not giving any compensation to anyone who 24 hasn't had a conviction". So now I feel that I'm 25 a bit lucky because I have a legal route to chase 102 1 that. So I've had an interim payment and I shall be 2 following them for compensation until the day I die. 3 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: All right, I understand fully. 4 A. I'd also -- let me just -- sorry, sorry, Sir Wyn. 5 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: No, please carry on. 6 A. I'd like to make the point that the 555, the victims 7 who are in this little loop, feedback loop, I think 8 it's incomprehensible that they are not dealing them 9 with open honesty and coming forwards. The minimum 10 they should be given back -- let's exclude 11 compensation -- is the money that they took off them 12 falsely. 13 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: All right. It just remains for me to 14 thank you for making a comprehensive witness 15 statement, for coming to give oral evidence, obviously 16 preparing yourself extremely thoroughly to do so, and 17 giving me the benefit of many important details. So 18 thank you very much. 19 A. Thank you, Sir Wyn. 20 MS KENNEDY: Chair, I think we're back at 2.00. 21 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: All right. See you then. 22 MS KENNEDY: Thank you. 23 (1.03 pm) 24 (Luncheon Adjournment) 25 (2.00 pm) 103 1 MR BLAKE: Good afternoon, Chair. 2 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Let me unmute. Good afternoon, 3 Mr Blake. 4 MR BLAKE: We have this afternoon two witnesses who have 5 been granted anonymity. 6 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes. 7 MR BLAKE: The first I'm going to refer to as 8 Witness 0283, and that is the number that I've taken 9 from the right-hand side of the witness statement that 10 he has provided. 11 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Fine. 12 WITNESS 0283 (affirmed) 13 Questioned by MR BLAKE 14 MR BLAKE: Thank you very much. As you know, I'm 15 Julian Blake and I'm going to be asking questions on 16 behalf of the Chair this afternoon. We know you as 17 Witness 0283. You should have in front of you 18 a witness statement. Can you confirm that you have 19 a witness statement dated, I think, 4 February of this 20 year? 21 A. I do. 22 Q. Can I ask you just to turn to the final page of that 23 witness statement. I think it's page 21. Can you 24 confirm that that is your signature on that page? 25 A. Correct, it is my signature. 104 1 Q. Can you confirm that that statement is true to the 2 best of your knowledge and belief? 3 A. It is. Thank you. 4 Q. Thank you very much. 5 I'm going to start by asking you about your 6 background. Now, you don't need to tell us exactly 7 where you live but can you tell us what area of the 8 country you live in? 9 A. I live in Oxford. 10 Q. You're married and we're going to hear from your wife 11 next. What about your family life? Do you have 12 children? 13 A. I've got two children. One 24, in his final year of 14 medicine at Leeds, and my daughter is 21. She's 15 finished her university and she is working in 16 a recruitment firm. 17 Q. What job did you do before running a Post Office? 18 A. A little bit of history. I arrived in UK '86. 19 I worked for London Underground for a short period, 20 before joining the Prison Service, I was five years in 21 London, and then moved to Oxford for the next 22 five years. I finished my service in '97 in the 23 Prison Service. I did three years in a travel agency, 24 travelling from Oxford to London, which meant I woke 25 up at 4.30 in the morning to catch the bus at 7.00 to 105 1 reach my place of work, 8.30/9.00. I'd finish from 2 there and return back to Oxford by 7.00 in the evening 3 and, at that particular point, my wife and we decided 4 that this was too much and we needed something more 5 stable and looked at a post office. 6 Q. You have mentioned that you spent some time in the 7 Prison Service and I think that's why you have been 8 granted some anonymity. Can you just tell us what 9 your duties were, in general terms, there? 10 A. I was a prison officer, locking, unlocking, dealing 11 with all aspects of a prisoner's life. 12 Q. Why did you want to run a post office? 13 A. Secure income, good prospects, a community, working 14 within the community, permanency. So a lot of -- 15 I mean, the Post Office being the Post Office, with 16 a set salary so, you know, you were assured of some 17 sort of an income, in spite of any other events that 18 might happen. 19 Q. You weren't the subpostmaster; is that right? 20 A. That's correct. The business that we purchased was in 21 the limited company's name. [Redacted], because she 22 put in her savings into the company, was the director 23 and I was the company secretary, so it was felt that, 24 as the director, she should be the postmistress. 25 Q. I am going to pause you there briefly, just because 106 1 there was a name that was mentioned and I might just 2 take two minutes just to check with the solicitor to 3 the Inquiry whether it's necessary to break for 4 a short period. 5 A. I apologise. 6 Q. That's absolutely understandable. 7 Obviously, for all of those who are in the room, 8 there are restriction orders in place with regards to 9 the identification of yourself and your wife. 10 So your wife was the subpostmistress and what 11 was your technical role, what was your job 12 description? 13 A. Practical everyday working of the shop and the 14 Post Office on a day-to-day basis was my job. In 15 practice, I was the subpostmaster because my wife, she 16 had a job, she was a deputy head school teacher 17 working in a job share. We had two young children at 18 that point who were one and four years old, so we felt 19 that the set up of the Post Office and the shop, and 20 me looking after that, would allow us, with her job 21 share, to combine a business salary earnings with the 22 children's lives. 23 Q. You said that there was a business as well. So what 24 did you sell? 25 A. It was a retail shop. At that particular point, it 107 1 was more of a newsagent when we took it over. Over 2 the years, we developed lots of services within that 3 shop. 4 Q. Can you remember the year that you actually bought the 5 Post Office? 6 A. 2001. 7 Q. 2001. I'm going to ask you about Horizon. 8 A. Yes. It was 2001 on 9/11, the exact date that we had 9 a stock-take. 10 Q. When you purchased the Post Office was Horizon in 11 place at the time? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you receive training on Horizon? 14 A. Two days' training on site. 15 Q. How was that training for you? 16 A. They taught us how to go through transactions, how to 17 pay pensions, sell stamps, sell fishing licences, how 18 to do daily transactions. They went through that both 19 practically and with manuals being provided, should 20 there be a need. 21 Q. Was it useful? 22 A. I knew nothing of the Post Office or the shop, so for 23 me, it was useful in the sense I learnt a new skill of 24 what to do on an immediate basis, if a customer came 25 into the Post Office, how and what to serve them, yes. 108 1 Q. Is that the only time when you were trained on 2 Horizon? 3 A. I had issues with the system in terms of shortfalls, 4 in terms of discrepancies, which I consistently raised 5 with the area manager. There were shortages which 6 built up and we were audited in February 2002 and that 7 audit showed a discrepancy of just under £2,000, which 8 I was told to make good, and I could make it good 9 immediately from the shop sales. The area manager, 10 she looked at what had happened, acknowledged, and 11 said that there were mitigating circumstances and she 12 was going to arrange for additional training for me to 13 happen. That was an extra Wednesday when a trainer 14 attended. 15 Q. Was that extra training useful? 16 A. Yes, in a sense. It certainly was useful. 17 Unfortunately, things didn't go wrong or happen as and 18 when you demand things to, you know, for transactions 19 to take place. So, certainly, their input helped my 20 understanding a little bit but unexplained shortfalls 21 didn't go. 22 Q. So you didn't experience shortfalls during the 23 training session itself? 24 A. He was there for a balance and, you know, if there was 25 a small amount of a shortfall, you know, by this time, 109 1 because of the written warning that I was sent that 2 I must make good any shortfalls, and if there were 3 overs I should take them out, I meticulously made sure 4 on every Wednesday balance the totals were correct. 5 I put money in. So there was no shortage after the 6 audit in February 2002. 7 Q. So I'd like to talk you through the various 8 shortfalls. When did you first experience shortfalls? 9 A. Right from the start, right from the start, ranging 10 from small, a few £20, £30, £50, right up to 11 £300/£400. Again, you would get correction notices 12 a few months down the line and, on occasions, that may 13 give you a positive surplus balance, again, that would 14 be in the region of £100/£200, which we would then 15 take out but balance the books. 16 Q. Can you tell us what is a correction notice? 17 A. If there was an error that was discovered subsequent 18 to the balancing, by the back office -- Post Office 19 back office, they would then send you a written 20 correction, an invoice sort of a thing, saying that, 21 for this particular thing, this much amount to be 22 debited or to be credited. And then you sort of rang 23 the help desk and said "I've received this correction 24 note, what do I do, how do I deal with it?" They 25 would talk you through and get you to enter that into 110 1 the system. 2 Q. Were correction notices the only way that you realised 3 that there was a shortfall or was there some other 4 way? 5 A. No, that was the only time that I could reconcile one 6 that particular item was connected to this one 7 particular transaction. 8 Q. Each time that you noticed that there was a problem 9 did you call the helpline? 10 A. I called the helpline every time I couldn't understand 11 or there was a difficulty with transactions. On one 12 particular occasion, on the Wednesday that we were 13 balancing, we had a £5,000 discrepancy, and I spent 14 hours and hours, and I spoke to the help 15 desk/helpline, and we couldn't make head or tail of 16 it, looked through each and every transaction. 17 Finally, I called a colleague, a postmistress, 18 who came at 8.00. We closed on the Wednesday at -- 19 I think was 1.30 to start the balancing. She came at 20 8.00. We went through everything. She was able to 21 identify that one business deposit, instead of £500 22 deposit, that was made 5,500 deposit. So obviously 23 I was then able to speak to the help desk and they 24 told me to put it into the suspense account and that 25 on the following balance, or when we received the 111 1 correction note, but I was able to put that into the 2 suspense account, and move on, so that the following 3 day we could open. 4 Q. When you did call the helpline, in general, did you 5 speak to just one tier? We heard another witness talk 6 about -- 7 A. There were two tiers. If the first tier couldn't help 8 you they would then escalate and say to you "We will 9 pass this to tier two, who will subsequently get in 10 touch". That was the problem because you needed 11 something sorted before 8.00 on the balancing day, 12 otherwise you had issues with opening up the following 13 day. So, at that point, you would then do the best 14 you could, as you understood it, to balance and turn 15 over a new page to start work on the following 16 Thursday. 17 Q. You've mentioned a couple of particular shortfalls and 18 I'd like to take them chronologically, if we can. So 19 after, I think, six months, do you recall a particular 20 shortfall? 21 A. That's the £5,000 shortfall that I mentioned but, at 22 the audit, we had a shortfall, cumulative shortfall, 23 of just under £2,000, at the first audit in 24 February 2002, where I was given a written warning by 25 the regional manager. 112 1 Q. In total, how much do you think you paid to cover 2 alleged shortfalls? 3 A. It could be anywhere from £20,000 to £65,000. To 4 qualify that, unfortunately we don't know because my 5 staff, who was a manager in the Post Office, was 6 committing fraud, benefit fraud, in the Post Office 7 and when we had the second audit and the auditors and 8 investigators arrested my staff, took him to the 9 Post Office, they searched his house, they found 10 £10,000 in cash and they found £5,000 worth of benefit 11 books in his possession there. 12 And that has complicated getting an exact figure 13 of -- but when the audit took place in 2004, July, 14 there were no shortages. In fact, on completion of 15 the audit, we were £99 over because, at every 16 balancing day, I made sure that we covered any 17 shortfall, if there were. 18 Q. So the figure that you have given me, I think, was 19 quite a broad figure and that, I think you said, 20 included sums that perhaps were stolen or were outside 21 direct shortfalls. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. I think in your statement you said between £17,000 and 24 £22,000 in shortfalls? 25 A. Correct, correct, correct. 113 1 Q. Let's talk about the audits. You have mentioned that 2 there are two audits. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. The first, 8 February 2002, where you were told it was 5 a shortfall of £2,000. At first, how many auditors 6 attended or people who were carrying out an audit? 7 How many attended? 8 A. Two. 9 Q. Did anybody else arrive? 10 A. Oh, yes. When they discovered the shortfall, they 11 then called the security team, so security people 12 arrived and I was interviewed, I was cautioned, the 13 interview was recorded. At the end of that, the area 14 manager, she decided that what I had said was going to 15 be taken as mitigating circumstances and that she was 16 going to issue me with a written warning. 17 Now, this is all in spite of me not being the 18 subpostmaster, to warning was given to me in my name. 19 I was considered and taken to be the postmaster in all 20 these interactions. 21 Q. You said you were interviewed. Where did that take 22 place? 23 A. That took place in the Post Office, in full view. It 24 was a three-counter Post Office. As you enter the 25 shop with glass windows, open in sight of everyone. 114 1 Q. I think you said that you paid back the £2,000 2 shortfall? 3 A. Yes. Fortunately for us, we developed our shop, which 4 was turning over a substantial amount, you know. So 5 we had a good cash flow and that helped me to be able 6 to cover the shortfall. 7 Q. The second audit was 15 July 2004. 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. What kind of an audit was that? 10 A. That was, I understand, an asset verification audit. 11 Q. Were you there for that initially? 12 A. No. I lived about 45 minutes away from the 13 Post Office and, by this time, I was concentrating 14 more on further developing the shop because the 15 Post Office salary, the pensions had all started to go 16 directly into banks. At one point we were paying 17 approximately £100,000 weekly in benefits to 18 Claimants. That was slowly drying up. I couldn't see 19 a greater future in the Post Office, whereas I could 20 develop things in the shop. So I was not there in the 21 Post Office to open up. 22 Q. When you did hear that the auditors had arrived, what 23 did you do about it? 24 A. So I received a call from my staff saying that there 25 were three people who were not allowing the 115 1 Post Office to be opened. I thought that this was 2 a hostage situation. I called the police, said that 3 I'd received a call from my staff that they were 4 unable to open the Post Office, I was leaving 5 immediately to attend, and I reached just around 6 10.00. 7 By this point, the investigator had actually 8 arrested my staff in the Post Office. They had 9 conducted the audit, finished it. They had found 10 nothing to help them but they had arrested that member 11 of staff. 12 They now needed to be able to search his house 13 but they couldn't do that without evidence of 14 wrongdoing and, despite not finding anything in the 15 audit and in the Post Office, they had the time up to 16 12 noon to get some evidence, and they fabricated one 17 document. One of the investigators produced one 18 document saying that I found it, I found it, we can 19 now get a warrant to search my staff's residence. 20 They went on to obviously search his house and 21 they found what I described previously. 22 Q. It's right to say that your staff member had stolen or 23 was found to have stolen -- 24 A. Yes, he was found guilty. He received two and a half 25 years' prison sentence as well. 116 1 Q. In relation to that audit that took place at that 2 time, despite what happened with your employee, was 3 there a shortfall showing to auditors? 4 A. No, there was a discrepancy. There was not 5 a shortfall. That discrepancy was that it was £99 6 over, the Post Office owed me that money. So, in 7 essence, there was no shortfall but they still called 8 this financial irregularities, splashed me over the 9 front pages of [redacted] and suspended -- took my 10 keys, suspended me, and installed a new subpostmaster 11 and not -- yes. 12 Q. Can you describe a conversation that you had with the 13 auditor? 14 A. No conversation whatsoever with the auditors. 15 Q. Were you told what would happen to you? 16 A. Yes. Simon Smith, the area manager, told me that if 17 I did not co-operate with the Post Office then they 18 would seize our assets, our home, they would freeze 19 our bank accounts and I was left under no doubt that I 20 had to follow and do what they asked me to do. He 21 told me I would never work in a post office, although 22 I had no contract with the Post Office, I was not the 23 subpostmaster. All these things were done to me. 24 Q. What happened to your branch? 25 A. It was -- I was suspended. The subpostmistress was 117 1 suspended. Our keys were taken. We were prohibited 2 from entering and the new subpostmaster was warned 3 that if Simon Smith saw us inside the Post Office, he 4 would terminate that subpostmaster's contract as well. 5 Simon Smith told me that he had done this previously. 6 He suggested that I resign to prevent my business from 7 going bankrupt. 8 Q. In all of that experience, how did you feel? 9 A. I felt, you know -- my, you know, stomach was 10 churning, you know. It's difficult but every thing -- 11 you know, I was nervous, I was afraid, my future was 12 flashing before my eyes. Overnight, I lost £50,000 13 salary. 14 Q. I want to talk to you about the impact on you both 15 financial and personal. Let's start with financial 16 then. You said you lost your salary of £50,000. How 17 did you manage to keep your business? 18 A. So we -- where have I got now? 19 So we obviously started developing the shop much 20 earlier. We developed a colour photo lab. We managed 21 to get the National Lottery. We introduced 22 an off-licence. We started making sandwiches and 23 delivering sandwiches to shops in Oxford. 24 We started providing financial services, Western 25 Union. That was a bone of contention with the 118 1 Post Office because the Post Office had MoneyGram with 2 them, and they were not happy that we were providing 3 Western Union. And I developed my own money transfer 4 business, directly to Kenya. I had my money business, 5 products and services licence, had my consumer credit 6 licence. 7 Q. Is it fair to say that you had funds to keep your 8 other business alive? 9 A. I didn't have -- blank balances to do this but I had 10 cash flows within the shop. We had literally managed 11 to double our shop sales in this time by providing 12 these additional services within the shop. 13 Q. You said that there was a temporary subpostmaster that 14 took over. Were you entitled to any of their takings? 15 A. No, none whatsoever. The only part that we were given 16 was a fraction of the lottery sales because the 17 lottery sales were in the retail side of the shop and 18 the temporary subpostmaster said he would pay us from 19 those sales a per cent because we were achieving the 20 sales. 21 Q. Moving on to personal impact, you said that it was 22 splashed over the front pages or something along those 23 lines. Can you tell us about that? 24 A. Yes. This happened exactly that -- the newspaper 25 article happened on, I think, [redacted], the day we 119 1 were moving from our house, which was 45 minutes away 2 to a place which was literally five to ten minutes 3 away from the shop, because with two young children, 4 school going, all the other things, it had been become 5 very difficult to -- you know, to commute and get from 6 work to home and, on that particular day, front 7 page -- the name of the Post Office, and it was 8 splashed on the front pages whilst we were 9 transporting our goods, we stopped at a petrol station 10 and I saw in the [redacted] the front page, and I just 11 could not believe that this is happening to us. 12 They said -- put my name in it, they said I was 13 a subpostmaster and they said this was -- there were 14 financial irregularities. I mean, that falsehood -- 15 there were no financial irregularities. Their audit 16 proved that there was a credit in the audit and that 17 absolutely destroyed our money transfer business, you 18 know. 19 We were sending thousands of pounds for 20 customers to Kenya every month and, like I said, we 21 had our own money business service licence, our 22 consumer credit licence, customers would come in to 23 send money and if I was not available, they would 24 take -- complete a send form, wrap it round the money 25 that they wanted to send, leave it with my staff and 120 1 go away. Amounts would range from between a few 2 pounds to a few thousand pounds. They simply left the 3 money, no receipt or anything. They absolutely 4 trusted me. Their trust was not misplaced and they 5 affectionately called me the "old man". 6 Q. How did that go after the newspaper article? 7 A. It absolutely -- it absolutely crashed. A Kenyan 8 woman who used to use our money transfer shop, money 9 transfer, you know, came into the shop a few years ago 10 and said that, as a result of the newspaper article 11 and the financial irregularities as reported by the 12 Post Office, we stopped using the shop to send money 13 and that business absolutely closed. 14 Q. How about your wider reputation in the local 15 community? 16 A. Because we lived further away, where we lived it 17 didn't matter that much but when we were at work, at 18 the shop, we were openly accused of being fraudsters. 19 Q. How about your health? 20 A. I subsequently developed diabetes, I had heart issues, 21 I got thyroid problems, I'm on constant medication -- 22 again, a lot of these are stress-related, whilst not 23 directly contributed by the Post Office, certainly 24 those are, you know, factors which have contributed to 25 the ill health. At one point, my feet and back were 121 1 hurting so much I started taking paracetamol. When 2 that stopped having an effect, I moved on to 3 co-codamol. When that stopped having an effect I went 4 on to tramadol, and I recognised that this was not 5 good. 6 I tried to stop. My body would start shivering. 7 I would not be able to sleep. I'd be pacing up and 8 down my bedroom, disturbing my wife and the children 9 sleeping on the floor below. So, again, at 2.00, in 10 desperation, I'd take a tramadol. My shaking would 11 subside, I would get some sleep, wake up in the 12 morning, go to the shop and continue. 13 In holiday time, my wife went with the children 14 for a week to London and that period I decided I'm 15 going to stop taking these painkillers, I stopped, 16 I suffered for a full week, but I was finally able to 17 get off those medications and, I mean, now I just take 18 the medications which I'm required to take as 19 a preventative measure for the diabetes and for the 20 cholesterol, for the blood pressure and heart. But 21 those are maintaining the status quo, rather than 22 for ... 23 Q. We're going to hear from your wife shortly but what 24 was your observations about her at the time. Do you 25 think she was affected? 122 1 A. Enormously. I mean, I tried to shield her as much as 2 possible and take all the flak on my shoulders but, at 3 the end, you know, money issues and childcare 4 I couldn't be there as much as I previously did, you 5 know. When I finished in my Prison Service and whilst 6 I was working for the travel agency, I would look 7 after my son and I would change his nappies and my 8 wife was a deputy head, so she used to work and I used 9 to look after the children, and I would work and she 10 would look after. We interchanged roles. 11 But these things, it's a partnership. We worked 12 together, we suffered together. She silently suffered 13 without saying much. 14 Q. How about your children? 15 A. Oh, yeah, when I had my heart attack they were both 16 magic. They both stepped in, they both came into the 17 shop, you know, did all the ordering and did the shop 18 sales and worked on the counter and actually supported 19 my wife and said to her, "Listen, you have to be 20 strong for all of us now". I was for five days in 21 a coma but, you know, that's health. I can't blame 22 the Post Office for that. What -- they did contribute 23 to that but, yeah, the children were really wonderful, 24 you know. You know, I can't bless them enough. 25 Q. Finally, in terms of the Post Office, I think your 123 1 wife was a party to the Group Litigation, the Bates 2 and Others case; is that right? 3 A. Both of us were. I was. Even I was and she was, yes. 4 Q. Did you receive a payment from that? 5 A. I did. I received a small payment of £5,000. 6 Q. Do you know how much your wife received? 7 A. I think it was about 40,000. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. I don't know the exact figure for her but about 10 40,000. 11 Q. What would you like from the Post Office now? 12 A. So, I mean, the financial part was that we remortgaged 13 our house on an interest only 140,000 which was due 14 for repayment on July 2020. We had 90,000 ready, we 15 were short of 50,000, the bounce back loan came, we 16 took that, we paid off, and cleared the -- 17 (Unstable connection) 18 Q. If you could pause for one moment. 19 A. -- the bounce back loan, we already defaulted on the 20 bounce back loan. 21 Q. Sorry, I think there was a problem with the internet 22 connection there. Let's try once more. I think you 23 were talking about your house and loans that you had 24 taken out is that right? 25 A. That's correct. £140,000 interest-only loan, which 124 1 was due for repayment in July 2020. We had £50,000 -- 2 sorry, we had £90,000 put aside. We didn't have the 3 balance, we were able to take a bounce back loan of 4 50,000. We were able to pay off the mortgage, based 5 on that, to clear off the finance that was taken to 6 purchase the shop in the first instance, but we cannot 7 repay the bounce back loan. That has now become 8 £51,000. NatWest have threatened to stop providing us 9 with banking services. 10 We, sort of, need help now or the bank will put 11 us into bankruptcy. 12 Q. So what you are asking for is financial. Is there 13 anything else that you'd like? 14 A. Sorry, yes, lots of things, please -- not lots of 15 things but, you know, what is truly amazing is that 16 the Post Office have not put forward a single case, 17 not one case of a subpostmaster living in luxury, 18 driving a Ferrari, having expensive goods, holidaying 19 and partying. What has happened to their ill-gotten 20 gains? No-one asked the question "Where is this 21 so-called missing money?" In fact, every single 22 affected postmaster has been shown to be suffering, 23 broken financially, emotionally, physically and 24 reputationally. 25 I am torn between wanting full and final 125 1 compensation and retribution for the perpetrators. 2 But, no, not retribution, actually justice for all the 3 pain, suffering that these executives are responsible 4 for and ministers are culpable for allowing it to 5 happen. These people were not unpaid voluntary 6 workers but all extremely well paid individuals and 7 not one person accountable. 8 Lord Coulson of the Appeals Court correctly 9 described the actions and behaviour of the Post Office 10 as Victorian factory owners and Justice Fraser, in 11 hundreds of pages of carefully considered arguments, 12 delivered a judgment that totally shredded all 13 Post Office's defence. The Government and ministers 14 have not come out in good light in these judgments 15 either. 16 Finally, why was the Barrister Clarke's advice 17 not disclosed to the GLO, Group Litigation, but only 18 at the Court of Appeal for the CCRC recommended cases? 19 How can the settlement be called full, fair and final 20 whilst this was concealed? Surely such concealment 21 might be a criminal offence. It is of utmost urgency 22 that the 555 from the GLO are immediately refunded the 23 legal costs they had to pay. 24 Finally, please on the last, let me thank 25 your Honour for providing us with this opportunity to 126 1 tell what happened to us and also we appreciate the 2 efforts made by your team in making this report 3 interaction take place. Thank you. 4 MR BLAKE: Sir, do you have any questions at all? 5 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: No, I don't have any questions. Thank 6 you. 7 I'm very pleased to accept your thanks but, 8 really, the thanks is all down to you and people like 9 you who are prepared to come to tell the Inquiry all 10 the important details that you have been divulging to 11 us. So thank you very much. 12 A. Thank you. 13 MR BLAKE: Chair, the next witness is another anonymous 14 witness, Witness 0282, and that's the first anonymous 15 witness's wife. 16 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes. 17 MR BLAKE: I'm going to allow her to be sworn in now so 18 will move out the way. 19 WITNESS 0282 (affirmed) 20 Questioned by MR BLAKE 21 MR BLAKE: Good afternoon. As you probably heard by now, 22 I'm Julian Blake and I'm asking questions on behalf of 23 the Chair today. 24 A. Hello. 25 Q. Hello. We are referring to you as Witness 0282. 127 1 That's taken from the top right-hand corner of your 2 witness statement. It's the number that your 3 statement has been given. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. I'm not going to identify you by name but can I just 6 ask you to confirm that you have that statement in 7 front of you, it's dated 4 February this year? 8 A. Yes, that's right, yes. 9 Q. Could I ask you to turn to the final page and just 10 confirm that that is your signature? It's page 14. 11 A. That's right, yes, it is. 12 Q. Can you confirm that that statement is true to the 13 best of your knowledge and belief? 14 A. It is. 15 Q. Thank you very much. 16 What did you do before you became 17 a subpostmistress? 18 A. I was a teacher. 19 Q. How long had you done that for? 20 A. Ten years. 21 Q. Why did you want to become a subpostmistress? 22 A. It just fell with in our family life, as my husband 23 just talked you through. It was a family decision 24 that, you know, maybe this will help supplement our 25 income because he had, you know, finished with the 128 1 Prison Service and this was the next step for our 2 life. We were ready to, you know, invest a bit of 3 money and go into a small business and Post Office 4 also seemed to be a fixed, steady income. 5 Q. We've hearing that your husband received training on 6 Horizon. Did you receive any training? 7 A. I didn't. No, I didn't receive any training. 8 Q. I think we've also heard that your role was relatively 9 limited in terms of the actual running of the 10 Post Office branch; is that right? 11 A. Yes, yes, it was. I left most of the running to my 12 husband. I think what happened is we took over in 13 September but then in -- after a few months, I did go 14 into the branch on certain days in December when there 15 were double payments in the Post Office and the staff 16 called in sick and there was a queue outside the door 17 up to the bus stop on the main road, and my husband 18 rang me saying "I need some help". So I had to step 19 in and learn as you go along on the job. 20 Q. At that time, you were still working as a teacher? 21 A. I was still working as a teacher then, yes. 22 Q. Did a time come when you didn't work as a teacher? 23 A. Yes. This was three months gone and then I think it 24 was another -- so six months since we got the 25 business, it was getting to a point where [redacted] 129 1 was coming in later and later trying to balance and 2 work out the Post Office balancing. 3 Sorry, I said the name. 4 Q. I'll stop you there for one minute. We'll just make 5 an adjustment to the YouTube. 6 A. Sorry. 7 Q. That's absolutely fine, and everybody in this room and 8 everybody who's following on a live link is aware that 9 there are restriction orders in place that protect 10 your identity. 11 A. My husband was coming later and later -- 12 Q. I'll just stop you there for one minute, just while 13 they check. 14 That's fine, that's absolutely fine. So, 15 please, do continue. 16 A. So, yes, he was coming in later and also we realised 17 that things are not as easy as they sound when you go 18 into, you know, employ people. They come in and 19 sometimes there's not a steady staffing on the days 20 you want. So you do realise -- sorry, I'll just ... 21 So that's where I think we started thinking 22 about that if I step in and help, also that it gives 23 one more manpower from the family itself to develop 24 the other side, as well, of the business. We were 25 trying to concentrate on that right from the 130 1 beginning, we were aware of that. 2 Q. So what was the relationship between you giving up 3 your job and shortfalls on Horizon, if any? 4 A. Because it was also taking away my husband's time from 5 the Post Office, because he was staying later and 6 later to balance things. There was always the 7 pressure of making sure on a Wednesday that you have 8 got the balance as it should be. There was always 9 something new coming up. 10 If there was somebody coming in to bank -- 11 business banking was coming, there was something else 12 happening, somebody coming in for a fishing licence -- 13 it was lots of new things which the two days that my 14 husband had as a training, I did not -- I don't think 15 that covered the whole thing. So, you know, also 16 calling the helpline was taking time. So sometimes 17 it's easier to call a subpostmaster who we knew 18 locally. 19 So that -- me being in the shop front also 20 relieved him, my husband, of the pressure of, you 21 know, watching that part or making sure that when the 22 reps came from different parts for the business, one 23 of us was around for that. 24 Q. So did you ever call the helpline? 25 A. I did not, no. I did not call the helpline. 131 1 Q. So while your husband was calling the helpline or 2 calling another subpostmaster, you would assist on the 3 shopfloor? 4 A. Yes, yes, that's right, yes. 5 Q. We've heard about the shortfalls and we've hearing 6 about the audits so we don't need to go into detail 7 about that today. What we're interested in hearing is 8 the effect on you personally. 9 How did you feel when you were aware of the 10 shortfalls? 11 A. It's very worrying. It's worrying because they were 12 not small amounts. We were working hard to -- as 13 a school teacher, you know, you earn that amount in 14 a month and then in a week, if you're having 15 a shortfall of 2,000, that is a big amount to cover. 16 You know, like my husband just said, that we were 17 trying to develop that and we were fortunate that we 18 added so many new aspects of the business. There was 19 no off licence; we added that. So we kept on adding 20 new things and he created the cash flow and he was 21 able to put in the shortfalls. 22 But I think -- I worried more because he was -- 23 his nature is just get on with it and let's, you know, 24 sort it out. I worried about the financial aspect but 25 how were we going to make this up, how we going to do 132 1 this? So that, you know, was worrying. 2 Q. We heard about some impact on your family. Can you 3 tell us about the impact on your family? 4 A. Family, mainly it is also that I think both [redacted] 5 and I now realise -- 6 Q. Sorry, you have mentioned the name again. 7 A. Sorry. 8 Q. I will just alert those who are -- that's absolutely 9 fine -- 10 A. Sorry. 11 Q. Those who are in control of the YouTube link will now 12 be aware of that and I'll mention again that everybody 13 is aware that there are restriction orders in place in 14 relation to your identity your husband's identity. 15 Thank you very much. Please do continue. 16 A. So we were -- sorry. We now realised that how bad our 17 health had gone with both -- but he mentioned about 18 his, you know, all the other heart attacks and 19 everything. But I think we've all both realised that 20 we had worked blindly without looking after our own 21 health. We were just very, very committed to the fact 22 we wanted to keep our head afloat, make sure our 23 children were fine. So, yes, that was the main thing. 24 Q. Did it affect your position with friends and the local 25 community at all? 133 1 A. I think the main thing was local community -- we were 2 working all hours so that I don't think we paid much 3 attention. Family, yes. People, our friends and 4 family were concerned, and my parents kept saying 5 about especially when we were wrongly convicted -- 6 when we were wrongly suspended, sorry -- we were 7 wrongly suspended, my husband wanted to prove it 8 otherwise that why can't we be reinstated because we 9 had done nothing wrong. We spent lots of money going 10 to barristers and, you know, paying big large amount. 11 It was almost 25/30,000 at that time we paid in 12 lawyers' fees. Nobody was ready to touch or look at 13 the Post Office case because they're such a big 14 identity and, you know, nobody was ready to listen to 15 us. 16 At that time my parents kept telling us that, 17 you know, just leave it get on with it but I think, 18 you know, that time our families were worried about us 19 and they did keep telling us but we just didn't 20 listen, I don't think. 21 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Can I just be clear about the reason 22 why you were taking legal advice and let me summarise 23 it as I see it. 24 Following your suspension, you wanted to 25 challenge it because you thought it was wrong, and is 134 1 that why you were taking legal advice? 2 A. Yes, that's right, yes, yes. 3 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: But in the end you were unable to 4 successfully challenge your suspension and 5 termination; is that right? 6 A. Yes, yes, that is right. I think it was Bond 7 Pearce -- I think a couple of lawyers, they wrote back 8 to us from the Post Office side. But, yes, we were 9 not ready to accept the suspension because we had done 10 nothing wrong. We just couldn't accept it. 11 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: It follows, I presume, that you wanted 12 to challenge the suspension because you actually 13 wanted to continue running the Post Office? 14 A. Yes, yes, I had the petition, I had the Post Office 15 kept on advertising they wanted a Post Office in 16 [redacted] and all the locals wanted it and we thought 17 yes. In fact, when we redeveloped the business and we 18 asked -- when we had the pharmacy put in the shop, we 19 did go with the proposal to the Post Office saying 20 that we would give them a combi till at the 21 Post Office. We were quite, I think, 22 futuristic-thinking because now they're doing that as 23 combi tills Post Office but that time they wanted 24 a fortress, a three-counter fortress which I don't 25 think there was enough -- they were running it as one 135 1 counter when they suspended us when they had the other 2 subpostmaster there. So we did say we would give them 3 one counter Post Office but they did not want that. 4 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: All right. Thank you sorry for 5 interrupting, Mr Blake. 6 MR BLAKE: No, not at all and, to follow up on that 7 question about lawyers and litigation, we know that 8 you were involved in the groups action the Bates and 9 Others case. Can you tell us briefly how you found 10 that experience? 11 A. That was a big relief to find somebody else who was 12 there to do it and I think our voices to be heard 13 jointly, mainly because there was hope at that time 14 that maybe some -- we could not believe initially. We 15 were quite cynical, [redacted] and I having gone, 16 having fought with the barristers and -- 17 Q. Sorry, I will just let those following on YouTube 18 again to cut that short. 19 A. I'm so sorry. 20 Q. That's absolutely no problem at all and I'll just 21 repeat once again for everybody following the live 22 link and in the room that there is a restriction order 23 in place in relation to your identity and your 24 husband's identity. Absolutely, no problem at all. 25 Please do continue. 136 1 A. So having been down that route of fighting with the 2 barristers and lawyers, we were cynical initially when 3 we joined the Group Litigation. We didn't think 4 anything is going to come of this because 5 Post Office -- and then, as time went along, we 6 started thinking and we were feeling that, oh, there 7 is support. The Freeths lawyers were listening and we 8 were thinking this -- we are not alone, this has 9 happened, and we could not believe how many people 10 were affected -- could not believe how many people. 11 Q. We've heard about what you received from that. What 12 would you like from the Post Office now? 13 A. I was going to work to -- keep the subpost -- I've 14 still got it out for 20 years. I would have been 15 a subpostmistress until I was going to retire at 16 whenever it was, 65/70. So that is one big thing, 17 my -- all these years. 18 Also, I would like the Government to pay the 19 expenses and costs associated with the Group 20 Litigation as they were responsible for the bad 21 handling of the subpostmasters and of how the 22 subpostmasters were treated. They should make good 23 the losses we experienced, as I would have carried on 24 being a subpostmistress if I had not been forced out. 25 I also strongly feel that the Inquiry must hold 137 1 those responsible to account. So that is the main 2 thing. 3 Q. Thank you. Is there anything else you'd like to add? 4 A. No. I think I've -- we've covered everything, yes. 5 No, I think that's fine. 6 MR BLAKE: Chair, do you have any questions at all? 7 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: No, thank you. So it just remains for 8 me to express my thanks for you coming to give 9 evidence before me. We have the witness statements of 10 both you and your husband and now your oral evidence 11 as well, so thanks very much. 12 Could I ask you when I stop speaking if you 13 would mute your microphone, because I have noticed 14 with a number of witnesses that occasionally they 15 start talking about things which I shouldn't hear. So 16 it's best if you mute it straight away and then there 17 won't be any danger of me hearing things that you 18 don't want me to hear. So thank you very much. 19 A. Thank you very much to listen to us. Thank you. 20 MR BLAKE: Thank you very much. It's 10.30 tomorrow 21 morning. 22 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes. Thank you, Mr Blake. So 10.30 in 23 the morning everyone. Goodbye. 24 (3.02 pm) 25 (Adjourned until 10.30 am the following day) 138 1 I N D E X 2 PARMOD KALIA (affirmed) ..........................1 3 Questioned by MS KENNEDY .........................1 4 Questions from SIR WYN WILLIAMS .................25 5 JOAN BAILEY (sworn) .............................27 6 Questioned by MS KENNEDY ........................27 7 Questions from SIR WYN WILLIAMS .................52 8 CHRISTOPHER TROUSDALE (sworn) ...................56 9 Questioned by MS KENNEDY ........................56 10 WITNESS 0283 (affirmed) ........................104 11 Questioned by MR BLAKE ........................104 12 WITNESS 0282 (affirmed) ........................127 13 Questioned by MR BLAKE .........................127 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 139