1 Friday, 18 March 2022 2 (2.00 pm) 3 Focus Group Session 4 4 FACILITATOR: (Audio missing) -- Sir Wyn as part of his 5 Public Inquiry. 6 Sir Wyn, do you want to just have a quick word 7 before we get going. 8 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, just really to reinforce the 9 thanks that I know you have already received from 10 Mr Norris and from the Secretariat team. I am 11 extremely grateful to you for participating in this 12 way. It is not a formal forum, like giving evidence 13 might be thought to be, but nonetheless you are in the 14 public eye and so I appreciate that it's an effort for 15 anyone to put themselves in that position, so I'm very 16 grateful to you all for doing it this afternoon. 17 My task is to listen and, for the most part, 18 that's what I will do, but occasionally you may hear 19 my voice. 20 Over to you, Jerome. 21 FACILITATOR: Thank you, Sir Wyn. 22 So I would like to start perhaps with you Gary, 23 if that's okay. Just tell us a little bit about 24 yourself, so that Sir Wyn knows who you are and where 25 you are and also if you could just share with us 1 1 a little bit about why you have joined us today, why 2 you wanted to share your story with Sir Wyn. 3 GARY BROWN: Yes, my name is Gary Brown. I left school at 4 15 with no qualifications. I first off trained as 5 a butcher, but I weren't very satisfied with that so 6 at 20 I retrained as a paint sprayer, and for 23 years 7 I worked for the Ministry of Defence, Stoke Vickers 8 Defence Systems, painting the armoured fighting 9 vehicles. 10 We used everything to buy our Post Office, 11 redundancy money, everything, so we had nothing to 12 spare when we did move in there. 13 We moved from Leeds to a little village called 14 Rawcliffe in East Yorkshire. 15 FACILITATOR: Okay, and when did you first get involved 16 with the Post Office then, Gary? 17 GARY BROWN: It was August 2000 we moved in. We started 18 purchasing it or trying to buy it in the February. 19 FACILITATOR: And are you still there now? 20 GARY BROWN: In Rawcliffe, yes. About 100 metres down the 21 road from the old post office. 22 FACILITATOR: But you don't run the post office any more 23 then? 24 GARY BROWN: No, no. 25 FACILITATOR: Thank you very much. What would you say has 2 1 brought you here today to share your story? 2 GARY BROWN: I just want to give my version of events as 3 best as I can, that's all, to let Sir Wyn know how we 4 have been affected by it all. 5 FACILITATOR: Right, thank you. That's very clear. Thank 6 you, Gary. 7 Sandy, could I come to you and just for you to 8 tell us a little bit about yourself. 9 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: My name is Sandy Brocklehurst. 10 Before taking on a post office my career was retail 11 and customer service. We took our first post office 12 on in November 1998, which was a village post office 13 and I had been there a couple of years when I became 14 the branch secretary of the Taunton branch of the 15 Federation, and a little while after that I had 16 a surprise phonecall from the Post Office, asking me 17 if I would like a job with them as a retail line 18 manager and if I accepted the vacancy they would 19 cancel all the other interviews and I thought this was 20 a bit strange. 21 My husband reckoned I had been a thorn in the 22 side of the Post Office for a while as the branch 23 secretary. Anyway, cut a long story short, I turned 24 that down and the Post Office said I was wasting my 25 talents in a small office so, with their 3 1 encouragement, we sold the village post office and 2 bought an ex-Crown Post Office with a main contract in 3 1995. 4 That's it really for now. 5 The reason I have come here today, mainly, is 6 I would like Sir Wyn to hear some of the sort of 7 side-effects of how POID dealt with people because 8 I sat in on quite a few interviews and I think that's 9 important for him to know about that, and also my 10 views on the Federation of SubPostmasters. 11 FACILITATOR: Thank you. I'm sure you will get a chance 12 to -- so POID being the investigative team, yes. So 13 are you still living in the area where you were with 14 the post office then Sandy? 15 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: We're living in the next town to 16 where our post office was but we're now retired. 17 FACILITATOR: Similar situation to Gary, in that sense 18 then? Thank you. 19 Finally, Tim, welcome, do you want to introduce 20 yourself to us. 21 TIM BOOTHMAN: Hello, my name is Tim Boothman. I'm 22 current postmaster at Chapel-en-le-Frith in High Peak, 23 Derbyshire. 24 I grew up on a Yorkshire Dales dairy farm and 25 started to work for my mother and father when I left 4 1 school. 2 However, sadly, in 1995, my father died suddenly 3 and left myself and mother to run the farm. We did 4 round and about three years and we just carried on, 5 but it got to the point where I felt that I needed to 6 do something for myself and so we started to look 7 round for a business for myself. 8 My mother actually was -- she wanted me to go 9 through further education and go to university and 10 actually get a profession, such as an accountant or 11 a lawyer or something along those lines, but at 29 12 years old I felt that probably going back to school 13 was a little bit too late and I wanted to get my teeth 14 into something really. 15 So it was a bit of a compromise with my mother. 16 She said, "Well, how about being a postmaster, that's 17 an upstanding type of profession in the community and 18 you can have your own business at the same time?" So 19 we actually started to look round at post offices and 20 we travelled the length and breadth of the country and 21 we settled on one actually near to where we lived in 22 Keighley. That post office was Low Moor post office 23 in Bradford. 24 So we purchased that in -- I took over in 25 September 1998 and we ran that post office until 5 1 January 2005, and the post office that -- that closed 2 under -- I think it was the urban network reinvention 3 programme, so I was paid out a sum of compensation and 4 I used that compensation to purchase 5 Chapel-en-le-Frith Post Office where I am now and 6 still currently. 7 The main purpose of coming to the Inquiry really 8 is 24 years of experience of running a post office and 9 dealing with the Post Office and I believe that I've 10 got quite a number of things that would be helpful to 11 the Inquiry. Thank you. 12 FACILITATOR: Thank you, Tim. 13 Thank you all for those nice clear explanations. 14 So I would like to take you back to the time 15 when you were sort of first coming into the role in 16 the Post Office. I'm just interested to hear about, 17 kind of, your feelings and expectations at that time: 18 what was in your mind and in your hearts at those 19 times? 20 I will start with you, Tim, as you are still on 21 my screen, so do you just want to tell us a little bit 22 about what was in your mind or your sense of 23 expectation of what it would be like? 24 TIM BOOTHMAN: My sense of expectation was I knew it was 25 going to be hard work and I was no stranger to that, 6 1 growing up on a farm. My expectations were that, 2 having a post office would provide me with a good 3 level of income, it would form a basis really, 4 you know, to get married, start a family, that kind of 5 thing, and a good -- what I believed was a good 6 secure -- something like, you know -- it's not really 7 a job, it's owning a business that would be secure, it 8 had a secure future, and, obviously, I was always sort 9 of led to believe that the Post Office had a good 10 brand and they could be trusted, they had integrity, 11 so it felt like a very good career move for a youngish 12 29-year old. 13 FACILITATOR: Right, thank you Tim, yes. 14 How about you, Sandy, what was your sort of 15 expectation and emotions when you first started? 16 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: Well, we bought a village shop. It 17 didn't have a post office. The post office was in 18 another small village shop in the same village. 19 When the subpostmaster handed in his notice and 20 was going to retire, in those days, a post office 21 advertised the vacancies on a big board in the main 22 post office and my husband happened to see it and we 23 decided it would be a good idea to try and get the 24 post office into our business, so that it would be 25 more viable, and that's exactly what we did. 7 1 FACILITATOR: Okay, and how would you describe the person 2 you were at that time, Sandy, in terms of your 3 outlook? 4 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: I don't know. I have always been 5 very optimistic. I was looking forward to a new 6 challenge. I had always worked in retail and I'm 7 a people person, so I was looking forward to it. 8 Little bit of intrepidation but it was basically 9 paperwork and handing out money, which was no -- 10 nothing unusual for me, so I knew how to do that. 11 FACILITATOR: Right, right, thank you. 12 Gary, what was your, sort of, state of mind when 13 you first came into the game? 14 GARY BROWN: We planned to work up until retirement, 65 or 15 thereabouts, and hand it over to our daughter because 16 she is interested in things like that, but when we 17 moved in, after a few weeks, I realised we were onto 18 a winner, or we thought we were onto a winner and our 19 shop takings increased fivefold within months, so we 20 were thinking about retiring early, maybe 55, and 21 handing things over. 22 But things changed completely, everything was 23 turned on its head with what happened so -- yes, we 24 would have liked to stay -- we were adamant we were 25 going to stay there. We even buried my father's ashes 8 1 in the garden, so in a few years after that everything 2 went to pot. 3 FACILITATOR: Yes. The same way I asked Sandy, how would 4 you describe the person that you were in terms of your 5 outlook when you started? 6 GARY BROWN: I liked to have a laugh and a joke then. My 7 favourite day of the year were April Fool's Day. 8 I liked to play practical jokes but not any more. No. 9 No, I'm a completely different person. 10 FACILITATOR: Right. Okay, thank you. 11 So let's think about your first experiences of 12 running the post office. Obviously, we will get into 13 the Horizon issues as well but I'm interested into how 14 it started to pan out in those early days. Can I just 15 check, all of you were started on a paper-based 16 account ledger -- 17 GARY BROWN: No, I didn't. 18 FACILITATOR: You didn't, Gary, you were on Horizon, okay. 19 I will perhaps come back to you in a second then. 20 How about you -- Sandy, do you want to tell us 21 about those early days and how running the post office 22 was and (inaudible). 23 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: It was a small village post office. 24 It ran exceedingly well. I had a very good trainer. 25 He was a counter clerk from the Crown office and I had 9 1 a week's training with him. I think some of the 2 customers stayed away knowing I was going to be 3 trained, so he ended up having to grab things like 4 a tin of baked beans and putting them on the scales 5 and say "Right, that's a parcel going to France", or 6 "That's going somewhere else", so that was quite good 7 fun. He was with me for a week and then he came back 8 a week after to go through the balance, and no problem 9 at all. 10 Being such a small office, if I was tuppence out 11 on balance night, I was looking for it on the floor, 12 "Oh, there it is". No problems whatsoever with that. 13 When I moved to the mains post office in 1995 14 that was a different ball game. The Post Office 15 deemed I didn't need any training because I had 16 already had a post office but the office I took on had 17 vehicle licensing, Datapost, all sorts of thing I had 18 never dealt with and the staff knew more than I did, 19 which seemed, you know, a bit difficult. I was 20 supposed to be the boss and I was having to ask them, 21 and so I had no training, I had to learn as I went 22 along. 23 And what made it worse was the Post Office took 24 25 per cent of my remuneration in my first year to 25 reflect the risk, I don't know whose risk that was, 10 1 I think it was mine, not theirs. 2 FACILITATOR: This is when you transitioned to what 3 previously had been a mains office? 4 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: It had been a mains office, yes. 5 Well, it had been a Crown Office, then it was 6 transferred to become a mains office and then I took 7 it on. 8 But yes, the fact I had no training wasn't good. 9 We will talk about Horizon later, but the paper-based 10 system worked very well and we had minimal losses at 11 the time, all ticked along quite nicely. 12 FACILITATOR: Okay. So picking up on what Sandy is saying 13 there, Tim, how did you sort of feel prepared, and 14 tell us a little bit about those earlier days of 15 training or introductory times. 16 TIM BOOTHMAN: Yes. When I took over, I was very 17 fortunate in the previous owner, Brian, he let me work 18 in the post office a month before I took over, so 19 I did round and about four weeks and he just taught me 20 everything really that he possibly could. 21 There were two aspects to it really. I had got 22 to get used to the job, actually running 23 a post office, and also I was starting up in business 24 for myself, so not only did I have to sort of learn 25 all accountancy and HR for staff and employing staff 11 1 and all the legislation that goes with it, there were 2 two aspects and, to be honest, it was quite 3 overwhelming. 4 The paper-based system was actually a complete 5 nightmare to fathom and get my head round. The -- 6 my -- Low Moor was a very, very, very busy pension and 7 allowance -- we were doing something round and about 8 2,000 dockets per week of pension allowances which was 9 an incredible amount of money to be paying out and 10 also taking money back in through banking and bill 11 payments. 12 I also did quite a lot of postage. We were 13 a three-position counter and those three positions 14 were going flat out, five days a week, and two of us 15 could probably manage Saturday morning. 16 To try and make things easier, it soon became 17 apparent that there was actually a computer programme 18 called Richard Jackson. Now, Richard Jackson was 19 a postmaster at the time, somewhere over in Rotherham, 20 and he had actually developed a computer programme 21 called "Balancer", which you ran on just your normal 22 PC, and I believe it was a MS-DOS programme and what 23 you would do is all your paper dockets, whether it be 24 pension allowance dockets or telephone dockets and 25 things, you would go to the back and you would enter 12 1 them and, at the end of the week, it would produce 2 a cash account, as you would, instead of having to 3 write the actual manual with figures, this would do it 4 for you and the Post Office accepted like a print-out 5 from it. 6 What it also helped you do is, on balance day, 7 which was a Wednesday, you could start entering your 8 bulk stock and cash long before you actually closed, 9 so you would start entering all those figures and so 10 when you actually closed at, say -- I think we closed 11 at 1 o'clock or 12.30 on a Wednesday, which was like 12 a half day, you had nearly done everything and, as 13 soon as I went on that and got used to it, everything 14 improved massively and the sort of errors that came 15 back, they were -- in them days they used to call them 16 error notices and, to be honest, you had the 17 confidence that if you made a mistake, if you had -- 18 for instance, the giro in payments, the form -- some 19 of the forms were badly laid out and so a customer 20 could bank cash and cheques but there would be a grand 21 total in a box and a common mistake was for you to 22 enter the grand total of cash and cheques and not just 23 the cash. So, therefore, you would find yourself at 24 the end of the day, you know, quite a way out. 25 If that happens, you always had the confidence 13 1 that the post office would write to you and give that 2 money back and that was quite evident and, you know, 3 I made loads of mistakes in those early days but, as 4 soon as I went on Richard Jackson Balancer, it really 5 cleaned everything up and we were more efficient, more 6 slick and it just made the job easier. I never 7 actually did get my head round the manual, you know, 8 writing everything out by hand. 9 FACILITATOR: Right, okay, that's interesting. Thank you 10 for that. 11 So obviously that was all before Horizon -- 12 TIM BOOTHMAN: Yes. 13 FACILITATOR: So let's think about when things started 14 to -- particularly on the accounting side -- started 15 to go not as you would hope. 16 So Gary, just talk to us about your -- you know, 17 when things started to go a bit wrong for you 18 accounts-wise. 19 GARY BROWN: Well, it were after about two years, I think, 20 since we had been there. I mean, little bits were 21 going missing and sometimes it were over for a couple 22 of years, but, after that, it just seemed to escalate 23 and nothing seemed to be coming back. It were all 24 losses, losses -- we had this thing what we had that 25 the trainers told us to use for overs and unders. If 14 1 you were over you put money in it, when you were under 2 you took money out of it to put into the account 3 system. But, after a couple of years, there were 4 nothing over, it were always under and it seemed to 5 get gradually worse and worse. 6 FACILITATOR: Okay. So in that -- when would that have 7 been, those couple of years then? 8 GARY BROWN: That would have been about 2002, 2003. 9 FACILITATOR: Right, okay. So at that period, the two 10 years that you just mentioned, what did you sort of 11 attribute those errors to then, or those -- 12 GARY BROWN: Myself. 13 FACILITATOR: Pardon? 14 GARY BROWN: Myself. It was just me that was not up to 15 doing the job. I often said to Maureen, my wife, and 16 the assistant, what gave me the audacity to think 17 I could run a post office, and that's what I used to 18 say often because every week it seemed to be short. 19 FACILITATOR: Right. 20 GARY BROWN: And there were no -- I checked everything, 21 but there were no -- no way I could find anything. 22 FACILITATOR: So if you take yourself back to that period, 23 how did it feel? Because, obviously, Sir Wyn and 24 I have never run a post office. How did it feel to be 25 in that position of having those -- 15 1 GARY BROWN: I were on edge all the time. When I was 2 serving people I were double checking myself just to 3 see I hadn't made a mistake and I did make mistakes, 4 everybody makes mistakes but not to the extent it were 5 building up to. I was just feeling anxious all the 6 time. I were in 14 years and 12 of those years it 7 were murder. 8 FACILITATOR: I will come back to what you did next in 9 a moment, if that's all right, Gary. 10 GARY BROWN: No problem. 11 FACILITATOR: Sandy, when did things start to appear wrong 12 for you, accounts-wise? 13 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: When Horizon went in, in about 14 2000/2001, we started getting small errors -- when 15 I say small, £50/£60 -- and I was told that for 16 an office of that size that was quite normal. 17 As time went on -- we were fairly lucky, 18 actually. I only had two unexplained losses over that 19 period of time, but the machine would do weird things 20 and I lost faith in it, to be honest. On a Friday 21 night we would count all the cash and it was always 22 a Friday night that we did this particular thing. The 23 girls would count all the cash, I would enter it on 24 Horizon and it would come up that I was £360 short. 25 So after the girls had gone home I used to recount the 16 1 money and then my husband who worked on the retail 2 side of the shop would come in, he would recount the 3 money and then we would recount it together, and every 4 time it was £360 short. 5 And I would end up having a sleepless night 6 worrying about this and, on the Saturday morning, 7 I would go in, operate the post office as usual, 8 close-up at 12.30, count the cash, and it was 9 perfectly right and that happened on more than one 10 occasion, so I would be -- I lost faith in Horizon. 11 And being a branch secretary, I had also started 12 hearing of people having a few problems so, you know, 13 I was really worried that it could happen to us. 14 FACILITATOR: So how often were you getting -- was this 15 every week or every balancing period or -- 16 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: No, it was intermittent. It would 17 come up one week and then it wouldn't happen again for 18 a few weeks but then it would happen again. When it 19 happened for the third or fourth time, I just started 20 ignoring it. I thought, "Well, this has happened 21 before and by tomorrow it will be right", but you 22 still lie in bed worrying "What happens if it isn't?" 23 and "What happens if it had been 36,000 and not 360?" 24 It was a worry. 25 FACILITATOR: Okay. 17 1 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Can you just try and put an approximate 2 year when this sort of thing first started? We know 3 that Horizon was installed, depending on your 4 particular post office, around about 2000, so which 5 year are we in now, do you think? 6 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: Probably 2000 and -- it was 7 intermittent right the way through. 2004 onwards, 8 really. 9 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Okay, thanks. 10 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: It didn't happen every week. It 11 would -- once in a while. 12 FACILITATOR: Right, okay then. 13 As you said, it was enough to make you lose 14 sleep, you mentioned, at that time. 15 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: Mm-hm. 16 FACILITATOR: Okay. So, Tim, how did these stories 17 reflect what you were experiencing? 18 TIM BOOTHMAN: I -- if you go back to when Horizon was 19 actually installed, I would imagine in Low Moor in 20 Bradford round and about the year -- some time the 21 year 2000. We had gone on a few training courses and, 22 actually, I was really looking forward to it because 23 I thought it would probably revolutionise how we 24 worked on a post office counter and, to an extent, it 25 did. 18 1 The main thing is the -- on the day of 2 installation, obviously engineers would install it and 3 then you needed to be closed for that, obviously, but 4 when it came to setting up some sort of audit, people 5 and trainers would turn up and they loaded everything 6 onto the computer and you had your FAD code and all 7 your transactions, somehow everything got migrated and 8 you would set-off. 9 In hindsight, what I should have done, or 10 probably should have been advised by the Post Office 11 to say -- I had three positions. They should have 12 been set up as individual stock units and, instead, it 13 was done as one big stock unit. So, in other words, 14 if somebody made a mistake, you hadn't got a clue who 15 or where or how, or at what time or anything. I mean, 16 currently what I do -- I have still got three 17 positions in Chapel-en-le-Frith, all of them is their 18 own -- in effect, their own small little post office 19 and they declare their own cash three times a day and, 20 if a mistake has been made, right, you're going to 21 know and you don't have to look so far and you can 22 actually, to a point, remember who you have served and 23 what you have served, because it's only, you know, 24 like a short-term memory thing. 25 But we -- we carried on with this one big shared 19 1 stock unit and I didn't really know there was 2 a function of having individual stock units. I knew 3 that, in the back office -- the actual user interface, 4 in other words like the EPOS system to serve 5 customers, was very, very good. The back office bit 6 was just a mass of icons that meant nothing. 7 The balance snapshot that would be printed out, 8 which was, in effect, the equivalent of the ledger, 9 like your cash account, was a great big long thin 10 piece of paper that came out of the counter printer 11 and was just gobbledegook. 12 FACILITATOR: I -- sorry, did you want to say something, 13 Sir Wyn? 14 TIM BOOTHMAN: I will carry on, if -- 15 FACILITATOR: I was just going to ask, given you are 16 describing the situation, I just wondered what sort of 17 training or support or resource of any type all of you 18 had to ensure that you had Horizon working as it was 19 intended to. 20 TIM BOOTHMAN: I believed it worked okay and the reason 21 for which is that I carried on with my Richard 22 Jackson, despite the fact I was on Horizon and I did 23 that for at least two years. I was still very -- 24 I was still very sceptical because it seemed to me 25 that there used to be this egg timer -- a great big 20 1 egg timer in the middle of the screen that used to 2 spin for ages, and ages, and ages, and I used to think 3 "Why is it taking so long to work out a few figures? 4 Why -- is it short of memory, is it short of hard 5 drive, is it short of" -- I don't know. 6 So I was always very sceptical but, to be 7 honest, when you do your balance on a Wednesday 8 afternoon, the Horizon figure always matched the 9 Richard Jackson, so I had no reason to believe there 10 was any faults in the system, but there might have 11 been, I don't know. 12 FACILITATOR: Okay. So Gary, what did you get in terms of 13 specific support or training, or resources to help you 14 use and understand Horizon? 15 GARY BROWN: I had a really good trainer, Norma 16 Beresford(?). I had her for just under two weeks but 17 it still wasn't long enough. 18 The main business in our post office were 19 pensions, so that's what we were doing most of the 20 time, but once you got off that and Norma had left, 21 and you started to do something else, I hadn't got 22 a clue. I hadn't got a clue what to do, apart from 23 gas bills, electric bills, the simple things. But 24 I used to phone the help desk every day to try -- 25 you know, to try to get me through things. 21 1 Like the stock units, I never even heard of 2 them. I didn't know anything about them. 3 FACILITATOR: Right, so you were literally ringing every 4 day? 5 GARY BROWN: Yes, yes. I did a Freedom of Information 6 about a year ago and the Post Office told me I rung 54 7 times over 14 years. Now I had estimated 54 times in 8 under a year. I had a customer come in, in the early 9 days, and she said to me, "Do you phone the helpline 10 a lot?" I said "Yes, why?" she said, "Because my 11 friend works on it and she says you're phoning every 12 day". I thought, "God, where is the Official Secrets 13 Act? I thought they weren't supposed to give things 14 like that out". 15 So that's how often I was phoning. I just 16 didn't have a clue. I would say it were about two 17 years before I was reasonably confident. 18 FACILITATOR: Right, okay. 19 So Sandy, you mentioned the challenge of going 20 to the bigger branch and working with staff and 21 things. What was your sort of sense of how well 22 prepared you were to run Horizon and to solve any 23 problems or identify issues and things? 24 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: The training for Horizon was 25 inadequate, as far as I was concerned. We were shown 22 1 how to sell a stamp and a few other bits and then 2 given a manual and we literally had to learn the job 3 as we went along. That was it, really. 4 The whole system was not user-friendly at all. 5 It really wasn't. But we trundled on with it and 6 managed it. On the odd occasion -- well, the odd 7 occasion we phoned the helpline but they were 8 completely hopeless and, in the end, I instructed my 9 staff not to use the helpline under any circumstances 10 because the information they gave was inadequate or 11 totally wrong. 12 FACILITATOR: When was that again? 13 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: Fairly early on, probably within 14 about the first year of Horizon going in. I told my 15 staff not to use the helpline. 16 FACILITATOR: Right, okay. 17 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: We worked -- I mean, my staff had 18 been in that office quite a while before I took it on, 19 so they knew what they were doing. When Horizon went 20 in we helped each other with things. So if somebody 21 didn't know something, one of the other staff did or 22 I did, so we worked that way. So if a problem came up 23 we worked it out ourselves, rather than ring the 24 helpline because I knew of these problems where 25 subpostmasters had phoned and the error doubled, and 23 1 I didn't want that happening in my branch. So I just 2 said to the staff, "Don't use them, don't use them at 3 all". 4 FACILITATOR: So you had three terminals at that point, 5 did you, in the branch? 6 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: Yes, we had three. Well, we had 7 three on the counter and the back office one. 8 FACILITATOR: So imagine going back to that time, if 9 something is going wrong, what would you advise me to 10 do if I had a shortfall in my branch? What was the 11 process? 12 GARY BROWN: Sort it out yourself. 13 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: Basically, that's what the helpline 14 would tell you to do. Pay -- 15 FACILITATOR: How would you -- okay, so you have told 16 me -- so I'm ringing you up, I say "Okay, I'll sort it 17 out myself". How do I do it? What's my first step to 18 resolve a discrepancy? 19 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: It is very, very difficult. You had 20 to go through reams of paperwork, wasn't easy. Once 21 you got your head round the system, if you thought you 22 had created an error -- let's say of £100 -- you were 23 probably looking for something on the system that was 24 50 that you had put on the wrong side of the account, 25 if you get my meaning, because it would double it. 24 1 So you learned how to find discrepancies but, 2 luckily, we didn't have too many. I've got very good 3 staff and I think the fact they didn't use the 4 helpline was a great help. Yes, we worked things out 5 ourselves but the Horizon accounting system was 6 absolutely useless for a subpostmaster. You couldn't 7 find what you were looking for. You would reel off 8 a transactional log, which was like a long, little, 9 narrow piece of toilet roll, if you like, and you 10 could spend ages going through that and comparing it 11 to other things, and still not find the discrepancy. 12 So if you ended up with a discrepancy, in order 13 to carry on the next day you had so make good the 14 loss, or -- there was never any surplus -- or put it 15 into what was a suspense account, which deemed, 16 basically, if you put it in there, you were going to 17 pay it. 18 FACILITATOR: So how often would you say were you having 19 to make good the loss or to put it in the suspense 20 account, Sandy? 21 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: We used to -- the money used to come 22 out of the retail business so we made up the losses 23 quite regularly. If it was a large amount, my husband 24 used to record it. We've got -- still got the 25 paperwork here now. I had two, what I consider fairly 25 1 big losses, one of 600 and one of 400, and we paid 2 that by cheque into the post office, we covered it, 3 but we never got an error notice for that, so no, we 4 just had to accept it. 5 I think what -- it sounds terrible but I think 6 we were fairly lucky insomuch as our losses over 7 ten years were about £6,000, so I have given the 8 Post Office 6,000. But some of those small mistakes 9 were probably human error, someone had sold a Second 10 Class book of stamps and given out a First Class or 11 something, so there would be a small loss there but, 12 on the whole -- well, I maintain we were fairly lucky. 13 FACILITATOR: So if you exclude those human errors, what 14 sort of sum are you thinking was attributable to 15 Horizon errors? 16 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: The main one came to over £1,000 but 17 the rest of them were like £50, £100. Personally, 18 because I have no faith in Horizon, I would attribute 19 quite a lot of them. Anything other than a small 20 amount I would say was Horizon generated. 21 FACILITATOR: Okay, so I will go on to the other two in 22 a moment, but so you never got to a point of being 23 audited or investigated for any losses? 24 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: I wasn't. I was never investigated. 25 Audited, yes. The auditors used to turn up when they 26 1 knew I was going to be away at conference. Nearly 2 every time they turned up I wasn't going to be there. 3 FACILITATOR: We will come back to that in a moment then, 4 if that's okay, Sandy. 5 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: We will come back to that later. 6 FACILITATOR: If I can move across the room to you, Gary. 7 Can you just tell us about those experiences with 8 discrepancies and where you thought they came from and 9 just sort of tell us the story of what happened? 10 GARY BROWN: The main ones -- for instance, we were £1,000 11 short, so when I were balancing I phoned the helpline 12 up and they told me to do different things on the 13 computer. I did it, and while they were still on the 14 phone, it instantaneously doubled to £2,000 and that 15 happened twice, from what I can remember. 16 All the others, or most of the others, I just 17 put it down to myself not being able to do the job. 18 That's how they made me feel. They made me feel that 19 I just wasn't up to doing the job. 20 FACILITATOR: Okay, so you were describing before your 21 very frequent calls to -- 22 GARY BROWN: Yes. 23 FACILITATOR: -- the helpline. Were those predominantly 24 about shortfalls or were they about other operational 25 issues as well? 27 1 GARY BROWN: Mostly operational issues, to start with, but 2 later on it was about money going missing, and things 3 like that, yes. 4 FACILITATOR: So if we focus on the money going missing 5 calls, how does it feel when you're ringing them and 6 you see the screen doubling, and so on? 7 GARY BROWN: It makes you feel sick. It really does make 8 you feel sick, because you knew -- they didn't seem to 9 know what they were doing themselves. They were just 10 suggesting you to do things but they couldn't put 11 their finger on anything at all. So, towards the end, 12 I just stopped phoning. It was a complete and utter 13 waste of my time because you could be waiting an hour 14 trying to get through. 15 FACILITATOR: You know the way Tim described he had the 16 parallel IT system he was running, what did you have 17 to help you resolve or understand the causes of the 18 issues? 19 GARY BROWN: Nothing really. I used to do what the others 20 used to and go through the till rolls to see if there 21 was anything there, but, as Tim said, it was 22 gobbledegook. You had no way of finding out any 23 losses really, apart from counting everything, which 24 we used to do. My wife used to come and help me count 25 everything, stamps, everything, but it just weren't 28 1 enough. Everything -- whatever you did, there was 2 nothing you could do to get it right, not in my 3 circumstances anyway. 4 FACILITATOR: Right, okay. So you have talked about the 5 helpline all of you, I think, and what alternative 6 sources of help or support did you have to try and get 7 to the bottom of it? 8 GARY BROWN: Well, I phoned my -- I don't know what they 9 call them, line manager or area manager. All the time 10 we were there, in 14 years, I think I had two. I saw 11 the first lady twice, that were to tell me off, one of 12 the times because I hadn't put the lozenge up, a new 13 lozenge and things like that. 14 The second lady, Diane Hoyles(?), she were 15 really nice but she were no help at all. When I told 16 her about the discrepancies she said, "Well, if I do 17 get the auditors to come in they will just close you 18 down and you will have to pay the money back". I said 19 "I would do that anyway". 20 FACILITATOR: What sort of amounts are you talking about 21 here? 22 GARY BROWN: Hundreds of pounds a week. A week. 23 She did get an auditor to come in who was one of 24 her friends and it were off the record and he spent 25 nearly a week with me. He went through everything, 29 1 couldn't find anything wrong. 2 FACILITATOR: Right. 3 GARY BROWN: It were just demoralising. 4 FACILITATOR: Right, and just as I was saying to Sandy, 5 did it get escalated? Did you get investigated or -- 6 GARY BROWN: Only when I called them in at the end, after 7 14 years. 8 FACILITATOR: Right, we will come to that in a second 9 then. 10 So, Tim, you have heard what your colleagues are 11 saying there about the helpline and the area manager 12 and things. How does this match with your experience, 13 would you say, of shortfalls and handling them? 14 TIM BOOTHMAN: Yes. The helpline really was very limited 15 to what it could do. You will know -- you may have 16 had IT problems yourself with completely other 17 systems -- with completely -- you know, let's just say 18 that you had a problem with some kind of programme 19 that did your accounting and say if you rang 20 QuickBooks up, you can actually press a button and put 21 a code number in and that operator at the other end 22 can actually take control of your mouse and your 23 computer and things. 24 Now, I'm not saying that the Post Office should 25 be given access to that, but there was actually no way 30 1 of knowing, from their perspective, that the advice 2 that they were -- there's two things really, right? 3 It's whether the operative at the other end of the 4 phone understood what you were saying to them 5 correctly and you were understanding and pressing the 6 right buttons at your end. So the operative couldn't 7 have -- there's no way, right, could the person at the 8 helpline know if you had followed their instructions 9 exactly. 10 So there's a bit of ambiguity there really. 11 I have always steered very, very well clear of 12 suspense account and the reason for which, if you put 13 it -- if you put an amount in suspense, you have put 14 it on the wrong side, right, your error will double. 15 Your actual discrepancy will double. Not only that, 16 as time went on, transaction corrections used to come 17 out and these were like automatic transaction 18 corrections, where not only would it correct the 19 transaction you had done incorrectly but it would 20 automatically take -- remove that figure from the 21 suspense account. 22 Now, let's just say, for argument's sake, that 23 you had not entered the figure correctly or not put it 24 on the right side of the suspense account, and they 25 send the transaction corrections, if you get your head 31 1 round it, yes, your error would double, so I have 2 always stayed very, very well clear of using the 3 suspense account. 4 I mean, all these things, you know, I was 5 very -- I was very sort of keen at the beginning. 6 I loved it. I loved the computer system so much that 7 it soon became apparent from my retail line manager 8 that they were being overwhelmed with problems, 9 you know, during the roll-out loads of people had 10 loads of problems and nobody really knew how to use it 11 and they actually offered me a job. 12 I was given the title "Balance support officer" 13 and they paid me an hourly rate and they gave me 14 mileage and on a Wednesday afternoon my -- I had 15 finished mine and done for 1 o'clock, and I used to go 16 out on a Wednesday afternoon and I would support 17 sometimes three other offices to balance on 18 a Wednesday afternoon. 19 And I can remember one of them, it was somewhere 20 up in Huddersfield, and the gentleman had been there 21 30 years, I think, or it could even be 40, and to 22 expect him to start using this computer system without 23 additional support was just ludicrous. And so I think 24 I went there every single Wednesday afternoon for 25 six weeks, among others. 32 1 I must have supported at least a dozen other 2 branches before the Post Office kind of pulled the 3 plug on it when I actually felt that these people 4 needed more support. 5 FACILITATOR: Right, so from your recollection of that, 6 how much of those balancing problems were caused by 7 Horizon and how much would you -- or were you able to 8 deduce from what you were doing? 9 TIM BOOTHMAN: That's very difficult to say. I, at that 10 time, was not aware that the Horizon System couldn't 11 put two and two and make four. I never particularly 12 saw anything that would suggest that, you know, two 13 and two make five, but, again, because you couldn't 14 look into the back office, there's no way of accessing 15 it and there's no way of accessing it in a way that 16 you could look easily at the figures. There's just no 17 way of knowing. You had got a screen in front of, you 18 couldn't see behind, you couldn't see the workings of 19 how the system added up the figures. 20 FACILITATOR: Right, okay. So in your personal case, Tim, 21 how serious did the losses and discrepancies get to? 22 TIM BOOTHMAN: In my own branch we had quite a number of 23 losses, but usually -- usually, they were all round 24 and about £20. Now, you know, I could -- you could 25 attribute that to somebody giving the wrong change 33 1 out. You've got to appreciate that in a post office, 2 unlike a shop -- if you work in a shop or a pub or any 3 retail, you're just taking money in and that's it, 4 it's all one way. In a post office, right, sometimes 5 you're giving money out and sometimes you're taking 6 money in. You can soon get confused and I have done 7 it so many times myself, that I have just, you know -- 8 you can just deposit money into somebody's account, 9 instead of paying it out, or vice versa, so you really 10 needed to be right on the ball and with a queue out 11 down the street you really needed to be, you know, on 12 top of your game and your staff as well. 13 FACILITATOR: So over the time you were there, up until 14 now, I guess, what sort of amount do you think you 15 have had to put in to make up -- 16 TIM BOOTHMAN: I think I have put probably round and about 17 £3,000 or £4,000, if you added it all up, but to be 18 honest, if I looked -- when we tried to investigate 19 that, and I would do with staff, usually, right, the 20 most probable cause was user error because we would 21 look through a transaction log, especially once I got 22 on individual stock units, and we would look "Can you 23 remember that customer?" 24 "Ah yes", you know, the -- it's very, very easy 25 to, say, put £100 in somebody's account, instead of 34 1 10, especially, right, when the "00" button is right 2 next to the "Enter" button. Your finger can soon 3 catch that "00" button and the Post Office keyboard, 4 for instance, is not like your standard QWERTY 5 keyboard. If you look at your standard QWERTY 6 keyboard, it's a decimal point button next to the 7 enter. 8 I have actually seen pictures of postmasters 9 getting a knife and lifting that double note key off, 10 so they can't press it by accident. Just bad design 11 on the Post Office keyboard, to be honest, you know. 12 But to go back to your original point, I don't 13 believe, personally, that I have ever had a problem 14 with bugs and glitches in the Horizon systems that 15 I have used. 16 However, right, I have no way of knowing that. 17 I might have had and not known, so I don't actually -- 18 in all probability, I think I'm one of the very lucky 19 ones. 20 FACILITATOR: Okay, right. Thank you, thank you, Tim. 21 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Sorry, just before we go on, you 22 mentioned carrying out an activity on a Wednesday 23 afternoon, which I haven't heard very much about, in 24 other words, you going out to assist other people, all 25 right? 35 1 TIM BOOTHMAN: Yes. 2 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Can you give me some idea for how long 3 that continued? 4 TIM BOOTHMAN: I would say round and about four months. 5 It's difficult to remember because, say I was in 6 Bradford, the rollout -- they wouldn't just do 7 Bradford all in one week. They would space it out 8 and, usually, the retail line manager, a very good 9 gentleman called Peter Leskovac(?), I think he kind of 10 realised that I was one of the ones that kind of got 11 my head round it and he would send me out and -- 12 probably, on and off, for about a year. 13 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I take it that this was proximate in 14 time to when Horizon was rolled out? 15 TIM BOOTHMAN: Yes, yes. The offices I went to had just 16 had it installed and I usually went to them every week 17 for around and about six weeks to a month -- sorry, 18 for two months, or until they felt competent, 19 you know. Some of them after three weeks they were 20 fine. 21 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Then you hinted -- and I don't want to 22 put words into your mouth, but you did hint that this 23 programme or process may have come to an end a little 24 too soon and I just wanted to be clear that 25 I understood you about that. Do you think this sort 36 1 of process should have carried on for longer or not? 2 TIM BOOTHMAN: I believe so. I believe that they had 3 not -- they had certainly not intended to do that 4 right from the onset, the Post Office. It was, shall 5 we say, a knee-jerk reaction after they had rolled it 6 out and realised that the retail line manager couldn't 7 go round visiting all the branches that they could. 8 So I think there was a few of us, quite a number of 9 us, because we did go on a little half-day's training 10 to becoming a balance support officer, and there were 11 other postmasters there. 12 So we all got a little bit of training on doing 13 that and we all got a badge and sheets to fill in and 14 that sort of thing, but yes, I think it should have 15 gone on for longer, yes. 16 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you very much. 17 Back to you, Mr Norris. 18 FACILITATOR: Do you know if that was an original 19 initiative or was it something that was around the 20 country, as far as you were aware? 21 TIM BOOTHMAN: As far as I'm aware -- certainly -- it 22 certainly was -- I think, like, the head office where 23 the retail line managers in my area worked for was in 24 Bradford, Darley Street Post Office, which was a Crown 25 Office in Bradford. It definitely was round and about 37 1 in Yorkshire, sort of, Keighley, Bradford and Leeds. 2 I don't actually know about the rest of the country. 3 I don't know. 4 FACILITATOR: Right, okay. No reason you should, I just 5 wondered. Okay, right, thank you, because, as Sir Wyn 6 said, I hadn't heard of that role before. 7 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: We had two balance officers in our 8 branch that went out in Somerset. 9 FACILITATOR: Okay, so it was, yes. Okay, thank you. 10 GARY BROWN: Can I just say something about the training? 11 FACILITATOR: Can I just come back to you, Gary, sorry 12 just one second, can I just finish that -- Sandy, so 13 were they specifically coming out at a similar time to 14 what Tim described when Horizon was rolled out? 15 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: That's right. They were two 16 subpostmasters -- one was a subpostmaster and one was 17 a subpostmaster that did relief work and they had 18 a little bit of extra training, they seemed to get 19 their head round the system and they went out and 20 assisted. 21 FACILITATOR: To what extent was it explicitly because 22 Horizon was new or because Horizon was causing 23 problems? 24 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: I think, at the time, it was because 25 Horizon was new and we had one or two more elderly 38 1 subpostmasters that just couldn't understand the 2 computer system. 3 FACILITATOR: Okay, fair enough, thank you. 4 Sorry, Gary, you were going to say about 5 training, let's come back to you. 6 GARY BROWN: When I went for the interview, there were no 7 exam. Now, I would have thought if anybody who is 8 going to take on a post office, they should have had 9 some sort of examination because I'm no good at maths, 10 I never have been and I mentioned this to the 11 interviewer. I said, "When will you let me know if 12 I've got the office?" he said, "I will let you know 13 now, you've got it", and I said "What, no exam?" he 14 said, "No, all we're interested in is if you've got 15 enough money to last two years in business, money 16 behind you", and I thought "Fair enough". 17 And I thought that was brilliant, I didn't have 18 to take an exam, but what I thought is they don't take 19 into account your experience. I had never even opened 20 a computer before. I had no technical experience. 21 I was always a manual worker, so why don't they -- why 22 didn't they take into account different people's 23 abilities, instead of just throwing you in at the deep 24 end and saying "Get on with it", and that's how it 25 was. 39 1 FACILITATOR: Right, okay. I would like to sort of build 2 on that then. I'm interested in how you were kind of 3 monitored and managed by Post Office Limited then. So 4 we have talked about the account managers supporting 5 you, and so on, but let's talk about how they 6 responded when you had shortfalls or discrepancies -- 7 apparent shortfalls. What was the -- just tell me 8 about the process and what happened? 9 GARY BROWN: They weren't interested. They were not 10 interested at all. More often than not, they would 11 just say "You will have to put money in". As I said 12 earlier, Diane Hoyles said to me, "If I call the 13 auditors in and tell them about the discrepancy they 14 will just close you down", and that was the top and 15 bottom of it. 16 FACILITATOR: Right and when would that have been, sorry? 17 GARY BROWN: That will have been mid-2000s, maybe a bit 18 later. 19 FACILITATOR: She was your area manager, was she? 20 GARY BROWN: Yes. 21 FACILITATOR: So she told you that. How did you feel then 22 and what did you do on the back of that advice? 23 GARY BROWN: Well, you have just got to keep putting the 24 money in, which I did, thousands of pounds worth of 25 money, just to keep going. 40 1 FACILITATOR: How much of those payments that you have 2 made in did you ever declare or make the Post Office 3 aware of any way? 4 GARY BROWN: I would say about four or five, and then they 5 deducted it from my wages. That's after they told me 6 I were the only one. 7 FACILITATOR: Yes, so tell me about those conversations. 8 I'm just interested in the actual process during those 9 four or five. 10 GARY BROWN: Well, when you're short like that -- we had 11 run out of money to put in so that's when I started 12 phoning the helpline up. Say it were £1,000, they 13 would put you through to another department, I don't 14 know which it was, and it were always a nice lady and 15 I would say, "Am I the only one what's having problems 16 like this?" and you would always get that answer 17 saying, "Yeah", and it made you feel so -- it made you 18 feel inadequate. It were a horrible feeling. 19 FACILITATOR: How many times do you think you asked that, 20 Gary? 21 GARY BROWN: About four or five times. 22 FACILITATOR: This was always to this extended phone line. 23 GARY BROWN: Yes, yes. And then you would get a phonecall 24 back from your contracts manager, which mine was Andy 25 Carpenter, and you went through everything with him 41 1 and he would just say "There's somebody stealing". 2 "No". He said, I have been through this so many 3 times, there's somebody stealing", and I said "There's 4 only me and my wife and a lady that comes in now and 5 again". 6 "Well, there's somebody taking it", and that 7 were the answer. 8 FACILITATOR: All right. So from what you're saying you 9 never moved to a suspension or an investigation in 10 a formal sense? No. 11 GARY BROWN: Only in 2014, at the last one. I never got 12 suspended. I resigned. I was advised to resign. 13 FACILITATOR: We will come on to those in a second. 14 Sandy, just tell us about what the Post Office 15 were doing to understand your losses, either in 16 a supportive way or an investigatory way? 17 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: Didn't have -- they didn't 18 investigate anything. If you put it into the suspense 19 account, you were agreeing to pay, quite honestly. 20 But I didn't -- I said I didn't have too many large 21 discrepancies anyway. 22 We had one where a counter clerk had made 23 an error. I can't remember the exact details, but it 24 was quite a large sum of money and we notified the 25 helpline, got a reference number and then, about 42 1 a week later, I got a phonecall asking me if I was 2 putting the money in, and I said, "No, there's 3 an error notice due out on this", and explained it all 4 again. And then about a week later the audit team 5 turned up. 6 We explained -- I explained to them the 7 situation, gave them the reference numbers, told them 8 what had happened, they checked the stock and cash, 9 were quite happy and went away. 10 So I -- I never really had any major problems in 11 that respect, personally, but I met subpostmasters 12 that did. 13 FACILITATOR: Right, okay. 14 Tim, you were saying you never really got to the 15 stage of having an investigation or anything at all? 16 It was all in-house, as it were, was it? 17 TIM BOOTHMAN: Not as such. It was always made very clear 18 to me that you had got to put the money in. You just 19 thought you had made a mistake or a member of staff 20 had made a mistake, so you just used to put the money 21 in. 22 However, if I may, I may tell you about one 23 occasion where I arrived at my office, and it would be 24 around and about October 2004, and an audit team was 25 waiting there at 8.30, so we got there and they 43 1 introduced themselves as audit team. I think there 2 were three of them and I thought nothing of it. 3 I thought, "Well, you know, I've been audited before, 4 not to do anything, just let them get on with it, I 5 don't think they will find anything wrong." 6 So they did the -- they got about halfway 7 through the audit and they counted enough for me to 8 open and I opened and started serving customers, and 9 round and about 10.30, two gentlemen turned up who 10 introduced themselves as security investigation, and 11 I can remember it very vividly because my legs turned 12 to jelly and my first thought was, "Well, I know 13 I have not done anything wrong, maybe me staff have", 14 or maybe -- I don't know, so they asked if they could 15 come in, they came into the secure area and they took 16 me into a little back office and, basically, accused 17 me of stealing £2,000. 18 And they went on to explain that every week we 19 used to send green giros away, so somebody would come 20 in with a green giro and that figure could be -- well, 21 it could be for anything, it could be for a tenner or 22 it could be for £350, and so, obviously, you used to 23 pay that money out and, at the end of the week, you 24 would bundle them all up and send them in a green and 25 white striped pouch to Bootle, where they went back to 44 1 the DWP. 2 And so they explained that a pouch in 3 August 2004 had never got to Bootle, but the 4 difference was -- is that my weekly average green 5 giros amounted to £8,000, but, on this particular 6 week, they added up to 10, I had claimed for 10, and 7 so they straight out, with no -- they were extremely 8 aggressive. They accused me, right, of stealing 9 £2,000. They said that, "You had ghosted the £2,000 10 of dockets and thrown the whole pouch away", and to 11 which I informed them "Why on earth would I do that? 12 What would be the point? £2,000? Yes, it's a lot of 13 money, but not worth, you know" -- 14 And so they went on to explain that the average 15 weekly number of pouches that never got to Bootle was 16 nine out of round and about 13,000 or 14,000 17 post offices, and I had had one in March of that year, 18 and what they explained is that lightening cannot 19 strike the same place twice, to which I explained, 20 "Well, actually it can", because if you think about 21 it, if there's nine a week go missing, right, and it's 22 just like putting your numbers on in the lottery every 23 week, and so they were absolutely adamant. 24 They turned the place upside down, they went 25 through all my paperwork -- first thought is "Did I -- 45 1 probably had I not sent them off?", and I had put them 2 in my weekly papers that you file away for five or six 3 years. But the whole thing, they were aggressive and 4 actually -- 5 And then another auditor turned up, and so there 6 were five of them, altogether, and they had actually 7 turned up mob handed and, I believe to this day, they 8 had turned up mob handed to actually suspend me and 9 the whole thing was, actually -- I mean, I'm a very 10 different person now to what I was then. I was 11 extremely traumatised, and traumatised for some point 12 afterwards, because I thought, well, what had I done 13 wrong and all they were asking me to do "Can you 14 explain why it's 2,000 more than your weekly average? 15 Why? Why? Why?" And, at the time, I couldn't, and 16 it's one of them things, it came to me after they had 17 gone I managed to -- I managed to persuade them that, 18 no, I have not stolen any money, but I did actually 19 manage to realise why. 20 In 2004, the then Chancellor Gordon Brown 21 introduced a new -- something called pension credit, 22 and pensioners, who used to cash a Group 13 docket, 23 their retirement pension, got this pension credit 24 backdated and it was paid in the form of green giros. 25 So that week and a few other weeks, there were -- 46 1 I did pay extra money out but I couldn't think of it 2 at the time. 3 I did actually -- I did actually -- through some 4 slightly informal channels -- I think it turned out to 5 be -- the pouch was being intercepted by a dishonest 6 person on the way to Bootle. I don't really know 7 exactly. It's just what somebody said but they -- the 8 whole thing is -- the reason I want to share you this 9 story is it's actually got nothing to do with Horizon 10 but everything to do with the culture that existed in 11 Post Office Limited. They came that day, right, to 12 suspend, which could have led to termination and 13 myself and my mother's investment in that business 14 would have gone. And, obviously, in 2005 I had -- 15 they did pay me compensation, but no suspended 16 postmaster ever received any compensation. 17 So I became -- I was very near, right, to losing 18 my reputation, my livelihood, or whatever, and you 19 have heard plenty of people who have, so I just felt 20 that that is a story that's very, very pertinent to 21 the Inquiry. 22 FACILITATOR: Right, thank you. 23 So Gary, how does this compare with what you 24 have been through and do you want to, sort of, tell us 25 the story of your -- the progress and process of the 47 1 shortfalls and things. 2 GARY BROWN: Well, they just seemed to be getting worse 3 over time until 2014, when I recorded £16,000 going 4 missing. But when the union rep turned up it were 5 32,000, or thereabouts, not exactly. 6 FACILITATOR: Okay, so just take a step back. You did 7 your balancing -- was this the end of a trading 8 period, was it, the end of the month? 9 GARY BROWN: Yes. 10 FACILITATOR: So you had a £16,000 discrepancy? 11 GARY BROWN: Not in all one go, no. 12 FACILITATOR: Right, okay. 13 GARY BROWN: I was audited in September 2013 and it were 14 £300 over and, from then, it just started building up 15 and I didn't declare it, the loss, because we had no 16 money left, no money left at all to put in, so when it 17 got to February 2014, when I did the £16,000, 18 I thought, "I can't do it any more, I have just got to 19 come clean". I phoned my union rep up and I said "Can 20 you come in?" 21 FACILITATOR: That was the local regional rep, was it? 22 GARY BROWN: National Federation rep, yes. They were in 23 an office about five miles away. 24 FACILITATOR: Right, okay. Just before you -- what 25 communications had you had with the Post Office before 48 1 you called the Fed rep? 2 GARY BROWN: I didn't. It was a complete waste of time. 3 No, I had no faith in phoning the helpline up or 4 anything, so I had stopped phoning them a couple of 5 years before. 6 FACILITATOR: Right, okay. So when it got to 16,000 were 7 Post Office Limited aware of that discrepancy? 8 GARY BROWN: No, no. I covered it up with adjusting the 9 cheques. 10 FACILITATOR: Okay, right. So tell us a little bit about 11 the Fed rep conversation and where it went from there 12 then, just so we can, sort of, understand what process 13 happened? 14 GARY BROWN: I phoned him up on the Tuesday and he came on 15 the Saturday, because he couldn't get away from the 16 post office, and he came about 5 o'clock, I think, 17 evening, and he checked all the money and I think it 18 were him that said it was 32,000 short, or 19 thereabouts, and his answer to it was "Tell the" -- he 20 said "You're going to get the interrogation team in. 21 Tell them that you have been stolen. You left the 22 door open and somebody has been in and stole it". 23 Like a fool -- I were in that much of a state, 24 I were -- I didn't know my mind, so, like a fool, 25 I told the interrogators that under caution. 49 1 FACILITATOR: Can I just pause there one second? So you 2 rang the Fed rep on a Tuesday night -- or Tuesday. 3 GARY BROWN: Yes. 4 FACILITATOR: Did you explain to him on that call it was 5 about a 16,000 shortfall? 6 GARY BROWN: From what I can remember, yes. 7 FACILITATOR: In a sentence or two, what was your state of 8 mind between then and the Saturday? 9 GARY BROWN: Well, I had a breakdown -- on the Tuesday 10 when I phoned him, I just seemed to know the game were 11 up and I couldn't falsify it any more, and I -- my 12 wife came downstairs and she said "You're going to 13 have to go to the doctors", so I went to the doctors 14 and he said, "You're in the middle of a breakdown. 15 When was the last time you slept?" 16 "I can't remember". He gave me some sleeping 17 tablets and some anti-depressants and I were just -- 18 I was away with the fairies. I had just gone 19 completely. So from Tuesday to Saturday, and after 20 that, I mean -- when he came, I was physically sick, 21 when he confirmed the money had gone missing. 22 FACILITATOR: Right, so -- just so I'm clear, sorry, you 23 went through the books, or through the system for the 24 16 and then it appeared to be 32,000. 25 GARY BROWN: Yes. 50 1 FACILITATOR: On that Saturday, right, okay. Who was 2 this -- so this was the local Fed rep, local regional 3 rep? 4 GARY BROWN: Yes. I can't remember his name. 5 FACILITATOR: Right. So what were your feelings? You 6 said you were away with the fairies, understandably, 7 but tell me about the sort of processes -- the thought 8 processes and the action that you took? 9 GARY BROWN: I wasn't -- I just weren't thinking. 10 I didn't know what I was doing. I hadn't got a clue 11 what I was doing. I were drinking that much as well. 12 I was on bottles of whisky a night, one bottle of 13 whisky a night, just to blank it all and get some 14 sleep, along with the sleeping tablets. So my mind 15 just wasn't there at all. 16 FACILITATOR: All right, so his advice to basically 17 conceal it, or lie about it, I guess, did he give you 18 other advice around that point about, you know, what 19 you should do in relation to the investigation or what 20 happened there? 21 GARY BROWN: No, he advised me to resign. He contacted 22 the auditors to tell them to come in, which they did 23 the following Tuesday, and then, from then, they took 24 over. They closed me down. 25 FACILITATOR: Right, okay. You were open between then and 51 1 the Tuesday? 2 GARY BROWN: Yes. Do you want me to tell you about the 3 auditors? 4 FACILITATOR: Yes -- can I just pause? 5 Sandy, if you think about this in terms of 6 process, do you have things you want to say that kind 7 of meet the same point in the journey that Gary is 8 describing? 9 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: No, I'm just appalled at how the 10 Federation dealt with it. 11 FACILITATOR: Okay, well I'll come back to you in a second 12 on that then. 13 So keep telling us what happened then, Gary, if 14 that's okay. 15 GARY BROWN: The auditors came on the Tuesday and they 16 were fine, they were pleasant and I got the feeling 17 that they believed me and, excuse me, because I'm 18 going to swear in the next couple of minutes. When 19 they were leaving, one of them took me by the hand -- 20 well, both shook my hand and one of them took me by 21 the hand and he looked round, and he said "Tear this 22 fucking cage down, Post Office fucked, start selling 23 something but start making some money", and that's 24 what the auditor said to me, and they wished me and my 25 wife well. 52 1 And I said to my wife, they believe that 2 I hadn't done anything wrong. They seemed so friendly 3 and nice and -- I don't know, it just didn't seem -- 4 it just didn't seem right. 5 FACILITATOR: Right, okay, and so then what happened next 6 from that -- 7 GARY BROWN: Something else was said as well. I must have 8 been looking really worried, and the one that said 9 that turned to me and said "Don't worry about it, you 10 will be laughing about this in three months time", but 11 I wasn't and I'm still not laughing about it now. 12 FACILITATOR: No. So you were closed down on the Tuesday 13 by -- no, tell me about that, so the auditors left -- 14 GARY BROWN: On the Saturday. We never opened again after 15 the Saturday after the rep had been there. We tried 16 to keep the shop running but it were a waste of time. 17 FACILITATOR: Right, okay. So tell us about what happened 18 when the auditors left? What was the next event? 19 GARY BROWN: I've got some phonecalls or a letter saying 20 that the -- I don't know what the correct name is for 21 these interrogators. They wanted to interrogate me 22 but they didn't have anywhere to do it, so I invited 23 them to my house in the spare bedroom and that's where 24 they did it, and I could bring a solicitor or a friend 25 or whatever, so I plumped for the National Federation 53 1 rep, a different one, and from the Rotherham area, 2 I believe, and he told me, if they found me guilty, 3 I will be going to jail for two years and, within an 4 hour -- 5 FACILITATOR: The Fed rep said that, sorry? 6 GARY BROWN: The rep said that, I will be going to jail 7 for two years and, within an hour, one of the 8 interrogators said exactly the same to me, off record, 9 "You're going to jail for two years". 10 FACILITATOR: Okay, right, so what did happen next, Gary? 11 GARY BROWN: I were interviewed under caution. 12 FACILITATOR: In the spare bedroom? 13 GARY BROWN: In my spare bedroom. They said it lasted 14 63 minutes when I did the Freedom of Information, but 15 it lasted far longer than that. 16 I did the Freedom of Information to get the copy 17 of the CD, which I didn't get. They said they would 18 give me one and they didn't, but I never even got a CD 19 from the Post Office, I got a heavily redacted 20 transcript of it. 21 FACILITATOR: So what's your recollection of the process 22 between them arriving in the bedroom and the 23 caution -- telling you you were under caution? 24 GARY BROWN: Well, before and after the interrogation it 25 were lighthearted -- not with me because I didn't want 54 1 any part of it. I would just keep myself to myself 2 out of the way with the Federation rep. They were 3 laughing and joking about football and I thought 4 "There's something" -- I don't know, it just didn't 5 seem right. And then when I was under caution being 6 given the interview, the rep tried to speak up and 7 I do apologise again, one of the interviewers shouted 8 at him -- pointed his finger and said "And you can 9 fucking shut up". 10 He never spoke again from what I can remember. 11 I were just left by myself. It were a waste of time 12 him being there. 13 FACILITATOR: Can you remember specifically which team or 14 unit they were from, the investigators? 15 GARY BROWN: They were from Manchester somewhere, that 16 area. They were like good cop, bad cop. One was nice 17 and the other was just accusing me all the time "What 18 have you done with the money? You're guilty", and 19 that sort of thing. Part of it I weren't feeling well 20 and they said "Do you want to stop", and I said "No 21 keep going", so ... 22 But it lasted far longer than the 63 minutes, 23 and then they searched the house and garage and cars. 24 They even went through my wife's underwear drawer. It 25 were just humiliating. 55 1 FACILITATOR: Right. Then the outcome of this was what? 2 What happened next? 3 GARY BROWN: I resigned, or were told to resign. I was 4 advised by the union rep to sell my house to pay them 5 back. He said if you do that it might stop you from 6 going to jail and being prosecuted, going to jail. So 7 we put our house on the market. We explained to the 8 estate agent the position. The house were valued at 9 £350,000 on business, and it eventually sold for 10 225,000. So we lost 125,000 like that. That's just 11 so I didn't go to jail. 12 FACILITATOR: Yes. So what was the -- I will come back 13 to -- no, just finish off then. What was the legal 14 process that you went through? 15 GARY BROWN: I didn't go through none, no. 16 FACILITATOR: You (inaudible) -- 17 GARY BROWN: I had a letter and a phonecall from 18 Andy Carpenter(?) and he said they're not going to 19 take it any further, so that were it, that were 20 finished, but I were hounded and hounded -- that was 21 February, until we moved out in July -- by phonecalls 22 from one of the investigators "Where's our money?" and 23 that's all they were bothered about "Where's our 24 money?" Even when we were exchanging contracts, I got 25 a phone call "Have you exchanged contracts yet". 56 1 "Yes". 2 "Well, can we have our money straight away". 3 I said "I will send a cheque off tomorrow" and that 4 were it. 5 FACILITATOR: So you sold the house, you paid back the 32, 6 was it, in all? 7 GARY BROWN: Yes. 8 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Which year was this, please? 9 GARY BROWN: 2014. 10 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, thanks. 11 FACILITATOR: Okay, and so was that the end of that 12 process then, effectively, from what you're saying, 13 was it? 14 GARY BROWN: Yes, that were it finished, yes. Yes. 15 FACILITATOR: Sandy, could I come to you just to describe 16 some of your process because you mentioned about the 17 POID and the Federation. Perhaps if I could give you 18 a few minutes to -- let's start as Gary was talking 19 about the investigation. Do you just want to tell us 20 about your experience and views on the POID then? 21 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: Yes, sure. First of all, there is 22 something I would like to say that Sir Wyn may or may 23 not understand, all right? 24 Branch secretaries in the Federation were 25 volunteers. We weren't trained. The most help we got 57 1 was a little leaflet saying "This is how to organise 2 a meeting and give your local subpostmaster some 3 support", but it didn't really explain what that 4 meant. 5 When I took the job on I started doing what 6 I assumed all the branch secretaries were doing and 7 that was I organised meetings and if anyone had 8 a problem, I dealt with it, whether it be going to 9 help them check that their balance was right, and if 10 a postmaster in our area ran into trouble they knew to 11 ring me straightaway, and I used to tell them "Make no 12 comment to the auditors and let us know when the POID 13 interview is". 14 And I would attend that interview as a friend or 15 as a Federation rep, but we were not allowed to say 16 anything. We were there, we could be there to oversee 17 what was going on but we were quite categorically told 18 we were not allowed to intervene. So I could only 19 give my subpostmaster advice before he went in and 20 support when they came out, and I sat in on many 21 an interview where it was extremely harassing. They 22 were quite brutal at times, that's the word I would 23 use. 24 I know they had a job to do but, on two 25 different occasions, I actually stopped the 58 1 interviews -- I wasn't supposed to -- because the 2 subpostmaster was in such distress and I insisted that 3 we had a break. I mean, they really were -- it was 4 good cop, bad cop but they were quite nasty about it. 5 So I want to mention that fact because a lot of the 6 witnesses have said, "Oh, the Fed rep didn't say 7 anything". As I said, we were not allowed to. 8 If we had a -- we were called to help with 9 what's called an RTU, which was Reasons to Urge 10 interview, Reasons to Urge to get the postmaster 11 reinstated, that was normally with a contracts 12 manager. The Federation representative could make 13 representation to the contracts manager on behalf -- 14 you know, supporting a subpostmaster, and I did that 15 on a number of occasions as well. So, you know, when 16 I hear about these people that didn't seem to get the 17 benefit of help from the Federation, it does annoy me 18 because, at the time, I was quite a proud member and 19 I was a branch secretary for 16 years and, in all that 20 time, I only had one case that I couldn't deal with 21 and that was because he got himself a solicitor and, 22 if they did that, we weren't involved any more. 23 All the other cases I dealt with with the 24 Post Office, and got on extremely well with most of 25 those personnel. I seemed to have a rapport with them 59 1 in the end. In fact, sometimes, POID would phone me 2 up and say, "We're suspending this person this 3 morning, maybe you would like to contact them later", 4 they would tell me in advance what was going on. 5 The one thing I did notice was the fact that 6 there was no consistency from branch, or area to area, 7 in the outcome of these suspensions. In one area, the 8 subpostmaster could be reinstated, in another area 9 they were booted out and I could never understand why, 10 why that happened. They could lose their job for £500 11 in one area and, in another area, they're being 12 reinstated although there was thousands of pounds 13 supposedly missing. I could never understand that. 14 FACILITATOR: Which areas of the country were you the 15 branch secretary? 16 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: Most of Somerset. Most of Somerset. 17 But the other thing that I found annoying was the fact 18 that, as I said, the branch secretaries didn't really 19 get any training. The executive officers were 20 supposed to help us and, to me, they were like an 21 old boys' club. I would phone them up for advice and 22 they would go, "Tell him to ring the Samaritans, tell 23 them we can't help them". 24 And this I must tell you. I was at the -- 25 I think it was the Llandudno conference, on my way in, 60 1 and Alan Bates, of the JFSA now, was stood outside 2 handing out leaflets and, as I went to take one, my 3 executive officer walked by and in a very loud voice 4 he said "Sandy, don't take any notice of him, he is 5 a thief". And that's how the executive of the 6 Federation thought of people that were in trouble. 7 The minute they were in trouble, they were guilty, and 8 I never took that view. I took the view you were 9 innocent until you were proved guilty and I worked 10 very hard to try and make these subpostmasters -- if 11 they weren't reinstated, they would have time to sell 12 their office, so they didn't lose their investment and 13 things like that. 14 But I feel so sorry that, in other areas, the 15 branch secretaries didn't do that as well. 16 FACILITATOR: So how often were you typically in contact 17 with the executive officers, Sandy? Just sort of 18 describe that communication for us. 19 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: Well, as I said, they weren't much 20 help. I had my very first case -- a subpostmaster 21 phoned me up and he was in a desperate situation, was 22 talking about suicide, and I spent 40 minutes on the 23 phone talking him out of it, and I put the phone down, 24 walked back into our house, it was connected, and my 25 husband said "Are you all right?" and I burst into 61 1 tears. 2 I had never had to experience anything like 3 that, so I phoned up my executive officer for some 4 advice and he said, "Oh, for heaven's sake, tell him 5 to phone the Samaritans or put the phone down on him". 6 And I thought "That's not what an organisation that is 7 supposed to be representing subpostmasters is supposed 8 to do, surely?" And we didn't get any help from the 9 executive. As far as I was concerned, they were like 10 an old boys' club, no help. 11 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Sorry, you said that you were a branch 12 secretary for 16 years. Can I try and pin down the 13 period we're talking about, from when until when? 14 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: 1990 until about 2007, and then 15 I became branch president. 16 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: How long did you hold the position of 17 branch president? 18 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: A couple of years until we sold the 19 office. I took the presidency on so that I could help 20 nurture the new secretary in but he was well up to it 21 anyway. 22 I was very lucky in my branch because my branch 23 president was ex-police, so if we heard of 24 a postmaster in trouble we would both go along and 25 interview him ourselves and we would come away and 62 1 say, "Well, what do you think?" and if we thought he 2 was guilty, the best I could do was get him time to 3 sell and let the Post Office deal with him. 4 If I thought they were innocent I would fight 5 the case. 6 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Just one more question from me. You 7 have stressed that when you attended interviews under 8 caution you weren't allowed to say anything. Just 9 tell me how that kind of instruction came about? Was 10 that something said at the beginning of the interview 11 by the investigators or was that something that was 12 just known throughout the business, so to speak? 13 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: I think it was known throughout the 14 business but, to my knowledge, the first few 15 I attended it was, funny enough, always the same 16 interrogators. We would go in, sit down and he would 17 look and say "You're here just to see fair play, 18 you're not allowed to say anything". Then we would 19 have to give -- they would start the tape and we would 20 give our names and who we were, and so it would roll. 21 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: As far as you can remember -- and, 22 please, if you can't, that's fine -- at these formal 23 interviews under caution, was anything ever said by 24 the investigators about the right to legal 25 representation? 63 1 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: No. 2 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you, Ms Brocklehurst. 3 FACILITATOR: Is your understanding that there were 4 similar experiences for other branch secretaries, so 5 when you went to conferences, did you share these 6 experiences with others and things? 7 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: Some of them were very good, they 8 would do their very best to support the postmasters, 9 but others just organised meetings and if somebody -- 10 a subpostmaster phoned up who was in trouble they 11 would say "What do you expect me to do about it?" and 12 put the phone down. 13 I had a phonecall from the -- one of the retail 14 managers of a post office and she said to me, "Sandy, 15 we have had to suspend someone in Devon. I know it's 16 not your area but the branch secretary put the phone 17 down on them. Not expecting you to do anything but 18 she might need a shoulder to cry on, will you ring 19 her?" So I rang this lady up, had a long chat with 20 her. Cut a long story short, in the end, POID phoned 21 me up and said, "We've got no lady investigators 22 available on that day, are you going to be 23 representing this lady?" and I said, "Yes, I'm coming 24 down". They said "We will pick you up and drive you 25 down then", so I said "Fine". So I went down with 64 1 them. They promised me lunch on the way back. 2 Anyway, I had a chat with my lady before she 3 went in. She admitted to nothing. When they came out 4 POID turned to each other and said "There's nothing we 5 can prosecute this lady on", and we went, got in the 6 car and, as I said, they promised me lunch on the way 7 back. Well, his idea of lunch was a sandwich and 8 a can of coke from the local garage because I think 9 they were a bit annoyed, because he turned to me and 10 said, "Was that lady really stupid or was she well 11 coached?" and I didn't answer him because she had 12 genuinely not done anything wrong. 13 FACILITATOR: So, in the period after Horizon was 14 introduced, was this a common experience for you as 15 branch secretaries collectively to be dealing with 16 Horizon issues? 17 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: Yes, that and training, that and the 18 training issues with Horizon, and generally. I mean 19 I had another case where a subpostmaster -- new 20 subpostmaster was closing at lunchtime on a Wednesday 21 and he was still trying to balance at midnight, so my 22 husband and I went over and we showed them how to 23 balance and how to use the system, which really the 24 Post Office should have done in the first place. 25 FACILITATOR: Yes. When you were ringing the executive 65 1 officers up -- you mentioned earlier about calling the 2 executive officers for support or advice, were you 3 telling them, "You know, there's a Horizon problem 4 here or there", or whatever, and what were their 5 reactions? 6 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: That was -- well, the executive 7 officers were normally in attendance at our regional 8 meetings and these subjects came up and they just 9 said, "No, no, no, it's robust, nothing wrong with 10 it". 11 FACILITATOR: When would that have been, sorry? 12 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: They followed the same line as the 13 Post Office all the way through: nothing wrong with 14 the system. 15 Now, I understand why, to a certain extent. 16 Obviously, if they had admitted -- if the Post Office 17 had admitted there was a problem they might have 18 risked losing clients, if it they thought there were 19 bugs in the system but, at the same time, there were 20 subpostmasters being prosecuted for things they hadn't 21 done. 22 FACILITATOR: Yes. I want to spend the last half an hour 23 talking about the impact of all of this on all of you, 24 but do you have any other information you want to 25 share with us about the processes you went through, 66 1 the way that you were treated or anything at all that 2 Sir Wyn hasn't heard about the actual events. 3 TIM BOOTHMAN: If I can come in, is that okay? 4 FACILITATOR: Yes, please. 5 TIM BOOTHMAN: Yes, the other sort of small story I would 6 like to say is, it would have been round and about in 7 2017, that day I was serving on the counter -- by this 8 time I had two branches and I had got a manager in 9 each, and I was serving on the counter, and I served 10 a young gentleman with an HGV licence tax and it was 11 £1,800, and I did the transaction and, to the very 12 best of my knowledge, put the cheque in the drawer, he 13 paid with a cheque. 14 Now, at the end of the day, what you do is you 15 process the cheque deposit envelopes, which are people 16 putting cheques in their bank accounts, and also remit 17 the cheques out to a processing centre and fill 18 a batch control voucher in and send them off in 19 an orange and white pouch, and they would get there 20 the next day and they would do whatever. 21 Now, on that particular day, what must have 22 happened is I must have inadvertently sent the cheque 23 to the Post Office without remitting it out and 24 without a batch control voucher, because my member of 25 staff the day after had run off a cheques listing and 67 1 there was a cheque there for £1,800 that obviously 2 wasn't in the drawer. And so he asked me what 3 I thought had happened, to which I can't remember, and 4 then we sort of pieced it together. We rang the 5 helpline and the helpline advised that to just remit 6 the figure of £1,800 out and your system will be right 7 and don't worry about it, it will be fine. 8 Because there were one or two scenarios that 9 either by mistake given the cheque back, right, to the 10 customer, or sent it off, like I have just stated. 11 So thought nothing else of it, until about 12 three weeks later I got a transaction correction 13 wanting £1,800 from me. In other words -- and at that 14 point I was, "Gosh, that's going to be quite 15 a large -- to put in", you know, because we always had 16 to put money in. 17 Now, as fortune would have it, later that day, 18 that gentleman came in again to tax another lorry. 19 They obviously had, I think, a fleet of about 50 20 lorries and I recognised his face and I explained to 21 him the story and he said, "No problem, come up -- 22 come and see my dad, he is very amenable, we will see 23 if we can sort it out". And, sure enough, I went to 24 see the gentleman and he got out his bank statements 25 and sure enough, the cheque had been cashed, right, 68 1 the cheque had been cashed. 2 So I came back and phoned the helpline up and 3 told them this and they said "Well, you didn't send 4 a batch control voucher off, we have no way of 5 knowing, you have still got to pay the £1,800, but the 6 only way that you can get round this is if you go and 7 get the cheque number, the sort code and account 8 number". 9 So I went back to this haulier and he rather 10 kindly took me down into the bank branch in Buxton and 11 we got a photocopy of the cheque. I came back to the 12 post office and phoned the helpline up again and said, 13 "Here, right, here is the cheque number, here is the 14 sort code, here is the account number", and their 15 reply was, "Yes, we did cash that cheque". And my 16 reply was, "Well, why did you want another £1,800 from 17 me then?" and it was a case -- it was a case of she 18 laughed, right, her first thing was she laughed, 19 "Well, you didn't remit it out and you didn't send 20 a batch control voucher, so it's tough". And I said 21 "You cashed it, you had had the money". 22 So the way I understand it works is the 23 Post Office must have some form of client suspense 24 accounts and so, in that particular one, right, it 25 might be it happened daily, it might happen weekly, it 69 1 might happen monthly, the DVLA will know exactly how 2 many tax discs were issued, and how much the amount of 3 money and the Post Office will owe them an amount of 4 money. Well, if they had had my £1,800 as well, that 5 client suspense account would have been in surplus, so 6 what would have happened to that money? Did it just 7 sit there forever? Would it have just sat there 8 forever? Or would it have found its way somewhere 9 else, like Post Office Limited's profit and loss 10 account? 11 I, to this day, can't really understand why New 12 Scotland Yard has not walked into Finsbury Dials and 13 turned the place upside down, and that is just my 14 opinion, to be honest. And, you know, I -- obviously, 15 I have followed all this Horizon IT scandal all this 16 time and, you know, I think a lot of the time that 17 it's not a case of a loss, the money has been 18 misappropriated. So, for all intents and purposes, 19 the money is somewhere else, not where it should be, 20 but I was extremely fortunate to recognise the 21 gentleman when he came in to tax another lorry 22 because, if I hadn't have done, right, I would have 23 been £1,800 out-of-pocket, and that money would have 24 sat somewhere in Post Office Limited for God knows how 25 long and -- well, I just don't know. That's 70 1 something, you know, for me -- for me, the Inquiry 2 needs to ask that question of Post Office Limited. 3 Thank you. 4 FACILITATOR: Thank you, Tim. 5 Gary, I would like to come to you. Obviously, 6 this is a human -- part of this is the human impact 7 and I would just like you to describe -- you talked 8 before about the health problems that you were having 9 at the time. I just wonder if you could tell us just 10 a bit more about the impact all of this has had on 11 you, whether it is financial, personal, or whatever, 12 just tell us your feelings, please? 13 GARY BROWN: Well, we lost everything. We lost our home, 14 to start with, our business. My health is shot to 15 pieces. I'm on that many tablets a day to keep me 16 going, it's unbelievable. 17 I'm still having panic attacks with it. About 18 two or three years ago I found myself in the local 19 cemetery at 3 o'clock in the morning, just sat on the 20 bench looking at the graves. I don't know how I got 21 there. I don't even know how I got back but I just 22 remember being in the graveyard. It's things like 23 that. I have had Bell's palsy with it, all brought on 24 by stress. Three months of walking around with my eye 25 closed and my mouth disfigured like the Hunchback of 71 1 Notre Dame, I was, so -- I mean, when your daughter 2 looks you in the eyes and asks you not to kill 3 yourself, that were the biggest one for me, but she 4 didn't realise that about a month before I had already 5 tried. 6 FACILITATOR: What age was she then, sorry? 7 GARY BROWN: It were 2012, so she would have been 25. 8 25 years old, yes. So, yes, it has just been awful. 9 Both of my children went to university. We 10 couldn't afford to give them money. Couldn't finance 11 them through to university, and that was so 12 embarrassing and degrading, and they have never 13 complained about it once, that's the thing. It has 14 just been horrendous. I wish I had never -- I wish 15 I had never ever set foot in a post office. It's been 16 terrible. 17 FACILITATOR: We're obviously talking about some of those 18 serious impacts then and, from what you're saying, 19 they still continue now. 20 How would you sum up the changes that have 21 happened to you? 22 GARY BROWN: What do you mean, mentally or physically? 23 FACILITATOR: Just everything really, from how you were, 24 from the person that you were describing at the start? 25 GARY BROWN: Well, I used to -- when we first went in, 72 1 I was 45 years old, so I weren't a spring chicken then 2 but I used to work 12/14 hours a day, and, yes, I was 3 tired, it was long -- but now, I haven't worked since 4 I left there. I can't work. I got up this morning 5 and I thought to myself, "Hey you don't feel bad, only 6 my knees are hurting". Within an hour, I were laid 7 down again, just the condition what I've got. I was 8 just laid down and I didn't get up again off the 9 settee until coming in here at just before 1 o'clock. 10 It's just shocking. I mean, the -- I don't even 11 think they're interested what damage they have caused, 12 the Post Office. I don't really -- there's been 13 nothing there at all. 14 FACILITATOR: If I have understood you, you have not 15 worked since you closed the post office? 16 GARY BROWN: No, no. 17 FACILITATOR: So what age would you have been then? 18 GARY BROWN: I were 58 when we closed. 58, yes. So I'm 19 66 now, so, I mean, this should be when we're enjoying 20 ourselves, me and Maureen, but no. 21 FACILITATOR: You mentioned your daughter. Do you have 22 a partner, a wife? 23 GARY BROWN: Yes, Maureen. 24 FACILITATOR: How would you describe the impact that she 25 has experienced? 73 1 GARY BROWN: Maureen ended up on antidepressants as well 2 but we have been solid, we haven't argued about it, 3 about what's happened or anything, we have been 4 really, really solid. I can't fault her for it. She 5 has been fantastic. I'm really proud of her. 6 FACILITATOR: Thank you, Gary. 7 GARY BROWN: Okay. 8 FACILITATOR: Sandy, you were nodding in agreement to some 9 of what Gary was saying. Do you want to tell us a bit 10 about the impact that all of this has had on yourself? 11 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: Luckily, none whatsoever, to be 12 honest. 13 I mean, the last three years of having the 14 post office, I wanted to get out, I had had enough, 15 I wasn't happy with Horizon, I wasn't happy with the 16 Post Office, to be quite honest. So it took us 17 three years to sell it but we managed to. The day we 18 walked out of there we decanted to a hotel and I sat 19 and cried. I was so relieved to have got shot of the 20 Post Office, if you like. 21 I don't think people realise that when they take 22 on a contract, you're immediately under the thumb of 23 the Post Office. You open the hours they want you to 24 open, you transact what they want you to do. You're 25 just -- you're stuck with it and it's not the sort of 74 1 job where you can hand in your notice and leave after 2 a month if you don't like it. You've got all your 3 money tied up in it, so you have either got to make 4 a go of it and make it work, or, you know, hang on and 5 sell. 6 I mean, I did over 20 years for the Post Office. 7 If I had my time again I wouldn't go near one, 8 absolutely wouldn't. We sold our house originally to 9 buy a village shop and then we took the post office 10 on. We have never got our original investment back. 11 Those houses are worth twice as much as the ones we 12 are living in now, that we could afford to buy when we 13 sold the last post office. Our investment went down, 14 even though the post office -- the mains office 15 I ran -- I mean I increased the remuneration from 16 about 45,000 up to nearly 80. 17 But when it came to sell it, we just didn't get 18 the market value it was really worth, what with -- 19 they were right in the middle of transform -- Network 20 Transformation, or whatever name they gave it, and we 21 had to wait to get a letter from the Post Office to 22 say they were confirming that we weren't a branch that 23 was closing. And we had to wait for that, but, 24 you know, it was -- I wouldn't want another 25 post office ever again and I have -- I had to say, 75 1 I have actually recommended people not take them on. 2 FACILITATOR: Thank you, Sandy. 3 So, Tim, how would you sum up all or any of the 4 impacts that these events have had on you then? 5 TIM BOOTHMAN: You would have to split it into two, 6 really. There's obviously -- we have talked about the 7 human impact and the other aspect is looking at it 8 from a business person's point of view. 9 From a human impact, right, day to day, week to 10 week, year to year, it's an arduous task running 11 a post office, right, arduous. It is harrowing, 12 it's -- you are in a constant battle, you're in 13 a constant state of alertness that something might 14 happen and that can be, you know, through customers, 15 or it could be the Post Office, because nothing's ever 16 easy with the Post Office. 17 A simple task -- a simple task, what you would 18 think is a simple task is -- can seem just beyond the 19 Post Office's comprehension, and I will give you 20 a little example, something that's happened this very 21 week. They have changed all the banking screens on 22 the user interface on the Horizon System in the last 23 fortnight. 24 Now, as you will know, the icons -- it's a touch 25 screen and there's icons, but in the bottom corner of 76 1 each icon is a two digit number and some users choose 2 to use those numbers, instead they use the keyboard, 3 so I will give you this example of what's happened 4 this week. The withdrawal icon used to be number 42, 5 so my counter clerk has always pressed number 42, it's 6 a withdrawal. Guess what they have changed it to, 7 right? The icon, yes, it's in a different place, but 8 icon number 42 is now deposit. 9 So a customer came in this week, right, and 10 asked "Can I withdraw £600, please?" So reverting 11 back from years, and years, of using Horizon, the 12 counter clerk has pressed number 42, £600, and must 13 have actually done it twice because that's one thing 14 that they have improved, for a deposit, you have to 15 confirm it twice, and mistakenly put £600 into this 16 lady's account instead of withdrawing it. 17 Now, we realised the mistake at the time and 18 this lady said, "Well, it's your mistake". We rang -- 19 the counter clerk's phoned the helpline and I gather 20 everything will be sorted, but, you know, it very much 21 depends on the honesty, right, of that customer, 22 because I think the Post Office writes to the bank and 23 then the bank writes to the customer and the customer 24 has to give permission for that £600 to be taken back 25 out. 77 1 If they're not honest, there's very little I can 2 do about it. 3 Now, only the Post Office, right, could make 4 that kind of error. That just shows a complete lack 5 of understanding of what it's like to actually serve 6 on a post office counter and I will bet -- I mean, 7 I have not heard of it yet, I will bet there's lots of 8 mistakes being made at this -- while we speak, for 9 that very, very reason and that is how it is for -- 10 that's how it's been for years, and years, and years. 11 Looking at the other aspect from a business 12 person's point of view, I, seven years ago, started 13 a little microbrewery, and I have now actually bought 14 a little micropub as well, and I'm starting to think 15 along the lines that do I want myself and my business 16 and my limited company and my family having anything 17 to do with the Post Office? It's -- you know, its 18 reputation, right. It must have gone right down with 19 all this -- what's going on. 20 To be successful and to continue to be 21 successful in business, do I want to be associated 22 with the Post Office any more? I'm sure it will come, 23 it won't just be yet, but that's from a business 24 person's point of view: does the Post Office have any 25 future? 78 1 Going back to the human impact, right, if you 2 look at everything closely, right, everybody that's 3 ever owned a post office, certainly in the 24 years 4 that I have owned one, right, we're all victims, for 5 the very, very simple reason that we have done -- we 6 have not enjoyed the post office that should have and 7 could have been. So we're all victims and I know 8 there's a massive variation in, you know, in some of 9 the people that have actually, you know, been 10 prosecuted, et cetera. 11 But sure -- you know, sure enough, we're all 12 victims because we have all had to suffer in one form 13 or another because the Post Office has not been the 14 organisation it should have and could have been. 15 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Mr Boothman, can I ask you, while it is 16 on my mind -- and I apologise to Jerome if he was 17 about to ask it -- but you, of course, are still 18 currently a subpostmaster? 19 TIM BOOTHMAN: Yes. 20 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: There have been many public statements 21 made by very senior Post Office personnel to the 22 effect that they really do wish to improve the 23 relationship between the Post Office and 24 subpostmasters and those statements have been made, 25 obviously, particularly in the light of the ending of 79 1 the litigation. 2 What's your experience of the last two or 3 three years in terms of general relationships with the 4 Post Office? 5 TIM BOOTHMAN: Right, that's a very good question. Could 6 be about three years ago they reintroduced area 7 managers, so every single post office, regardless 8 whether we were only a small post office, a large 9 post office, has been given an area manager, and 10 I have to say the two that I have had have been 11 brilliant and I've never heard a wrong word about any 12 of the other 90 others neither, so that has been 13 a very, very, very positive step. 14 But do I think a leopard can change its spots? 15 No. What I actually think has happened is the 16 Post Office has moved their spots and is hiding them. 17 It comes forward and says that it wants to reset the 18 relationship -- I actually did ask Nick Read, "What do 19 you mean by resetting the relationship? What 20 relationship are you trying to reset?" And his exact 21 words were, "There wasn't one". 22 And the way that I see it is they are making all 23 the right noises and they like people to perceive that 24 they have totally changed but, actually, right, if you 25 dig down deep enough, they have not changed at all. 80 1 There's like a hierarchical structure within, 2 you know, the higher end of Post Office Limited that, 3 actually, no, no. I -- as I have stated, as 4 a businessman and a contract holder with them, you 5 would be extremely foolish to ever trust them again 6 for what things that's happened to me and other 7 postmasters. 8 So there's plenty of evidence that they will 9 suggest and, yes, things -- little bits of things have 10 improved like, you know, a dispute button when it 11 comes to balancing and this, that and the other but, 12 actually, you know, what's the Post Office's plan for 13 the next five years? What do they actually intend to 14 do? Are they being as transparent as they should be? 15 Probably not. 16 You know, I -- you know, as I have stated that 17 my mother -- my mother gave me a substantial amount of 18 money to buy my first post office and I feel very 19 lucky that that sort of investment is still intact as 20 we speak, but whether I will ever see that money 21 again -- you know, could I ever sell this post office? 22 That would be a bit of a different story. I think 23 I would struggle to actually sell it. 24 So I'm open minded, but I think that the Inquiry 25 should look at actually -- actually dig deeper. 81 1 There's an awful amount of rhetoric out there and it's 2 like a hazy cloud, it's speculation. The newspapers 3 are full of it. There's loads of things on Facebook 4 and Twitter and all that and I just think that 5 actually what the Inquiry needs to do is it needs to 6 really dig deep and dig really down to find out 7 actually what's actually happened and what the 8 Post Office and Government's intent for the network is 9 going forward. 10 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you. 11 FACILITATOR: Gary, just before we finish I wonder -- you 12 are probably aware that Sir Wyn is going to be talking 13 with the other key players in these events. 14 I wondered what would you be asking him to ask them? 15 GARY BROWN: The Post Office? 16 FACILITATOR: The Post Office, the Government, whoever, 17 Fujitsu, individuals, whoever. 18 GARY BROWN: The culprits? I would just -- I would ask 19 Sir Wyn to get the truth out of them: why they did it. 20 I think we know why they did it, but why did they 21 punish us like they did, for no reason? I mean it's 22 heartbreaking how many people have been affected by 23 it, not just the 555, but the hundreds and hundreds of 24 people and the communities as well what they've had 25 their post office closed down because of it. 82 1 I'm sure Sir Wyn is going to get to the bottom 2 of it because he seems a very trusted man and I just 3 hope he can do it. Just ask them some delving 4 questions, which I know he is going to do, and I would 5 like to say thank you to Sir Wyn for all he is doing. 6 FACILITATOR: Thank you, Gary. 7 Sandy, have you got any questions you would like 8 Sir Wyn to raise on your behalf? 9 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: I would like to know what the 10 Post Office did with the surpluses that were in the 11 suspense account because I was told at one stage it 12 was quite a large amount of money. 13 Now, after they balanced all their clients' 14 complications and sorted that out, there must have 15 been a substantial amount of money sat in there 16 because subpostmasters were paying in 30,000 here and 17 there. What happened to that money? Did it go into 18 the Post Office's bottom line profit, or what? But 19 I would like to know what happened to that. 20 I would also, to a certain extent, like to say 21 that I think it would be very nice if the Post Office 22 and the Government finally gave the subpostmasters 23 a reasonable amount of compensation. What I wouldn't 24 want to see is lawyers and accountants arguing for 25 years about how much they give someone because their 83 1 husband killed themselves and how much do you give 2 somebody if they lost their house and how much do you 3 give them because they lost their job ten years ago. 4 I think across the board the compensation should be 5 a reasonable amount of money, X amount to each one of 6 them, end of story, so we can put a closure on it. 7 These people are desperate. They need the money now 8 and that's got to be sorted. 9 As for the Post Office personnel, I think I can 10 understand why they did what they did. I would like 11 to know whose instructions, and if they came from the 12 top, where Post Office personnel were told to tell 13 subpostmasters "You're the only one". That must have 14 come from somewhere and that's it really. 15 I would like to thank you for allowing me to 16 speak today. 17 FACILITATOR: Thank you, Sandy. 18 We are coming to the end of our time. Do any of 19 you have any other final things you would like to 20 bring to Sir Wyn's attention before we pass back to 21 him? Anything you haven't been able to say that you 22 wanted to? 23 TIM BOOTHMAN: Can I just say, just in reply to Sandra and 24 Gary, just following on: the truth, the whole truth 25 and nothing but the truth. I think if you were to 84 1 straw poll the vast majority of postmasters, that's 2 the answer you would get. People just want to know 3 what actually happened. 4 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: Yes. 5 FACILITATOR: Thank you very much. It sounds like a good 6 time to hand back to Sir Wyn, but I would like to 7 thank you for your time this afternoon and for your 8 openness. It has been a privilege to hear what you 9 have to say, thank you. So I will pass back to you, 10 Sir Wyn. 11 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Well, obviously the first thing I must 12 do is to thank the three of you for participating in 13 this afternoon's session. We have now done a number 14 of focus group hearings, as they are called, and each 15 one of them has been extremely informative in their 16 way, and this one has been no exception, because in 17 each one of them I learn things that I didn't know and 18 that is really the reason why we're holding them, so 19 a big thanks from me. 20 Some of the things you have said to me, all 21 three of you, haven't been said to me before and you 22 may know that many people have made witness statements 23 about their experiences. I stress that I am not going 24 to compel any of you to make a witness statement if 25 you don't want to, but it may be that in the course of 85 1 the coming weeks members either of the Secretariat or 2 my legal team will contact you and ask you whether you 3 are prepared to make witness statements about some of 4 the things you have told me about and if that does 5 happen I would be very grateful if you would give that 6 careful consideration, but I repeat, nobody is going 7 to force you to do it, only do it if you want to do 8 it. 9 So on that note, and with my repeated thanks, we 10 will bring this session to an end and I will wish you 11 all a good afternoon, so bye from me. 12 TIM BOOTHMAN: Thank you very much. 13 SANDRA BROCKLEHURST: Thank you. 14 (4.01 pm) 15 (The session concluded) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 86 1 I N D E X 2 Focus Group Session 4 ................................1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 87