1 Thursday, 19 May 2022 2 (9.30 am) 3 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Good morning, everyone. 4 Yes, Mr Blake. 5 MR BLAKE: Good morning, Chair. This morning we have 6 Mr Gormley, Mrs Elliott, and we have some further 7 summaries to be read. 8 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Let's just get ourselves prepared. 9 Fine. 10 JOHN GORMLEY (sworn) 11 Questioned by MR BLAKE 12 Q. Could you give your full name, please? 13 A. John Gormley. 14 Q. Mr Gormley, in front of you you should have a witness 15 statement dated 25 April of this year. Could I ask 16 you to look at final page. I think that's page 10 of 17 10. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And can you just confirm that that is I think your 20 electronic signature at the end? 21 A. That is my electronic signature. 22 Q. Is that statement true to the best of your knowledge 23 and belief? 24 A. That is true to my knowledge and belief. 25 Q. Thank you very much. 1 1 Can you tell us where you grew up and where you 2 are from? 3 A. I grew up in County Derry. I'm now living in County 4 Donegal. 5 Q. What was it like where you were growing up? 6 A. Well, we were born and reared on a small farm County 7 Derry. I went to college in Derry and then I went to 8 higher education here in Belfast, '69. 9 Q. I think you were 17 when you moved to Belfast? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. After studying can you tell us the jobs you had? 12 A. I studied engineering and it was from 1970 I think to 13 about '74 -- 1974, here in Belfast. I completed my 14 courses and had a few -- I spent one year in Sirocco 15 Engineering Works here and then eventually I moved to 16 Courtaulds who were a big company, textile company. 17 Q. At some point I think you got married? 18 A. I got married in between, yes. 19 Q. And you purchased a supermarket in Donegal? 20 A. Well, first of all, I purchased the supermarket in 21 Donegal, Courtaulds decided out of the blue to pull 22 out of Ireland. We got our lump sums and we invested 23 in a retail outlet in Donegal 1982. 24 Q. How many people did you employ? 25 A. Well, it was built up to about 50 at one stage. 2 1 Q. Was it doing well? 2 A. It was store of the year in 2000. 3 Q. We're obviously here to talk about the Post Office 4 today. How did you first become involved in the 5 Post Office? 6 A. Well, the franchise was offered to me in relation to 7 the supermarket first and then, shortly after that, 8 I was approached about the post office. 9 Q. Where was the post office? 10 A. The post office was in Shantallow shopping centre. 11 Q. Is that far away or near -- 12 A. It's on the border. 13 Q. And I think this was around 2002, wasn't it? 14 A. It was around 2002. 15 Q. At the time did you know how to run a post office? 16 A. No. 17 Q. And you took it over. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Did it stay in its original location? 20 A. It was moved into the store. We had a revamp to the 21 modern image. We had to bring the image up and based 22 a lot of money. 23 Q. Can you give us an idea of the size of the 24 post office? 25 A. The total size for the community to queue up and all 3 1 was about 500/600 square feet. 2 Q. And compared to other post offices that you know, was 3 it -- 4 A. It was one of the top six post offices. It was among 5 the top six in Northern Ireland. 6 Q. Is that biggest in size and in terms of footfall or in 7 terms of profit or ...? 8 A. Well, it was a deprived area and there was huge 9 payouts. 10 Q. Were you trained when you took over? 11 A. Well, I was asked and I did go to the Royal Mail in 12 Belfast and had a day's training. 13 Q. Presumably there were already staff that were 14 working -- 15 A. There were seven. We inherited seven staff from 16 the -- it was community-owned, and we inherited the 17 seven staff. 18 Q. And had those staff been trained, as far as you are 19 aware? 20 A. Well, as far as I was aware they were trained. 21 Q. What was your day-to-day involvement in that 22 post office? 23 A. Well, obviously the bottom line every week we, you 24 know, it was a bit -- making sure that the business 25 was achieving what it was set out to achieve. 4 1 Q. And you were the subpostmaster. 2 A. I was the subpostmaster. 3 Q. Do you recall a contract with the Post Office at all? 4 A. Well, I had a contract for sure. I just can't 5 remember signing it now. 6 Q. We've heard a lot about shortfalls and discrepancies. 7 When did you experience your first discrepancy? 8 A. Well, I would say probably second/third week there. 9 Q. And was it a large one, small one? 10 A. Well, it wasn't large and it wasn't small. It was too 11 much, you know. I think around £60/80 which was, you 12 know, quite a -- you had to question it big time. 13 Q. Did you raise it with anybody? 14 A. Well, the first was the manager, the appointed manager 15 of the Post Office, and he says this is an ongoing 16 thing. This is a problem. We have to -- you know, it 17 has to be made good every week. If there's 18 a shortfall it has to be made good. 19 Q. So you had the impression that it had happened before 20 you took over? 21 A. Well, I was very weak. I didn't do enough due 22 diligence in relation to this particular aspect of the 23 game, shortages. 24 Q. Did you raise it with the Post Office? 25 A. Well, I've probably about six/eight weeks, maybe two 5 1 months, it was raised with the Post Office big time. 2 Q. And what was their response? 3 A. Not a lot. They said it's normal practice; if there's 4 a shortfall, it has to be made good. 5 Q. Did you have any visits? 6 A. We had a regional manager I think probably that 7 particular post office would have been visiting every 8 two weeks. 9 Q. Did they assist you with the shortfalls? 10 A. Not much. The assistance was not there. 11 Q. Did you ring the helpline? 12 A. The helpline -- the manager rang the helpline and more 13 training was given to the staff, you know, but to no 14 avail. 15 Q. How did you deal with those alleged shortfalls? 16 A. Well, as time went on the pressure started to grow, 17 you know. I was getting pretty worried. There was 18 weeks it could have been 100 and there's weeks it 19 could have been down to 30, you know, pounds short. 20 Very, very few weeks it was break even. 21 Q. Did you pay for it -- 22 A. I rarely seen a plus. I rarely seen a plus. 23 Q. And noticing the minuses, how do they go back up? 24 A. Well, how do they got back up? This was presented to 25 me every week at the close of business, this 6 1 shortfall, and obviously we were going with the 2 manager of the Post Office says, "It's practice here, 3 you have to write a cheque and make good the 4 shortages", and we did do that. But second year 5 pressure was really, really coming on us about the 6 shortages, you know. 7 Q. Is that around 2003? 8 A. About mid-2003 the manager of the post office handed 9 in his notice and obviously we appointed a new manager 10 which had plenty of background training as good as the 11 previous manager. 12 Q. Can you tell us what your relationship was like with 13 the staff at that time? 14 A. It was strained, put it like that, because shortages, 15 you know, I mean, they had to be addressed and I was 16 making no headway in addressing them. 17 Q. When you say they were strained, can you give us an 18 idea of what you mean. 19 A. Well, staff knew they were coming under pressure and 20 obviously it got to the stage that, you know, it was 21 put to me you don't trust us, you know, about these 22 shortages. I never thought the Horizon System was 23 going to produce shortages, never thought. I always 24 was of the assumption that, the same as a cash 25 register, it had to be pretty accurate. 7 1 Q. And you said that you had a new manager. 2 A. Yes, a new manager. 3 Q. What happened with that new manager? 4 A. Well, we let him bed in. The person had to get bedded 5 in and, you know, it was ongoing. It was probably no 6 fault that it was ongoing but at this stage the 7 pressure was building up at her. You know, "Am 8 I getting accused for stealing the money here?" And 9 a year, probably six months to a year, we got 10 a resignation from her and a few weeks later we got 11 constructive dismissal put to us. 12 Q. So there were legal proceedings for constructive 13 dismissal? 14 A. Legal proceedings. 15 Q. How did that relate to Horizon? 16 A. About the shortages, you know. She was being blamed 17 for the shortages. 18 Q. In 2008 you resigned as a subpostmaster? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Why did you resign? 21 A. Well, I was in deep, deep issues in relation to the 22 supermarket because the shortages was continuously 23 getting -- the supermarket was continuously making 24 good the shortfalls. 25 Q. Do you have an idea, we've talked about 2002 to 2008, 8 1 do you have an idea over that period approximately how 2 much you had paid into the system? 3 A. Well, up to 2008 a rough guess you are looking at 4 £20,000. 5 Q. We're here today to talk about the human impact and 6 I want to know about the impact on you personally. 7 Did it have an effect on your mental health? 8 A. I was completely stressed out, completely stressed 9 out. Come 2007 we did make a decision this has to be 10 offloaded and we convinced -- first of all, we had to 11 convince -- there was huge debts building up in the 12 supermarket, obviously, as a franchiser and we were 13 coming under pressure for money and we decided we 14 would sell the supermarket back to them, back to the 15 supplier. And we brought the situation to them at the 16 post office, would they be interested in taking over 17 the post office, and probably six months later, yes, 18 they decided that they would take the post office. 19 Q. Did it affect your personality? 20 A. I was well down at that stage and I didn't want to 21 know much about -- you know, I didn't want to express 22 my depression for a start, I was not the type of 23 person. I probably never knew -- I have no memories 24 of ever going to the doctors or anything with any 25 ailments but I had serious pressure. I just didn't 9 1 want to express. 2 Q. How about your family? 3 A. My wife was feeling the pressure big time -- really, 4 really big time -- and it was affecting our marriage. 5 Obviously, we didn't know whether -- at one stage were 6 we going to have a loaf of bread for the end of the 7 week next week. 8 Q. And the financial impact more generally? 9 A. The financial impact was we were terribly indebted to 10 the supplier, and the residual debt we agreed a price 11 for the post office pretty quickly. We had our 12 solicitors all legally involved and there was 13 a residual debt that was transferred to my business in 14 Donegal. 15 Q. It's right to say you applied for compensation. 16 A. Was it fair to say I applied? No, I was too far gone 17 at that stage. I wanted to get it off my mind, hoping 18 that I could recoup it in Donegal but the residual 19 debt was very, very big. 20 Q. Did you apply to the Historic Shortfall Scheme? 21 A. I just wanted it washed out of my mind. I didn't 22 apply for the simple reason I just wanted to feel free 23 and get it off my mind, get it out of the road 24 completely. I didn't want my family to know about it 25 or nobody to know about it. I didn't want my friends 10 1 to know about it. I just couldn't believe for one 2 minute that the Horizon System -- I still didn't even 3 believe until I saw it brought up in the local 4 newspapers, I think it was the Belfast Telegraph, and 5 then it started probably right then. This applies to 6 me big time. 7 I got myself pulled together and started making 8 enquiries through the Hudgell family and from there it 9 was, you know, explained to them exactly what happened 10 the whole way through. We were very, very much on the 11 breadline and still have know -- you know, we still 12 have issues to deal with. 13 Q. Have you applied more recently? 14 A. Pardon? 15 Q. Have you applied more recently for compensation? 16 A. I have applied but, you know, I've no avail yet, 17 absolutely no avail. They're not interested. 18 Q. So when you said you've had no avail? 19 A. I've had no -- they're not interested. 20 Q. Did you receive a response? 21 A. I'm outside the limit. It seems to me I'm outside the 22 statute of limitation. 23 Q. So you're outside the time limit? 24 A. I'm outside the time limit. This is what they say, 25 but I find it hard to believe that they are going to 11 1 cough up. 2 Q. Have you pursued it further? 3 A. Well, we're pursuing it and, you know, it's going to 4 be a long drawn-out situation but I have my doubts 5 that this is going to come good. 6 Q. Is there anything you would like to say to the Chair 7 today? 8 A. Well, I find it hard to believe that this can happen, 9 that an organisation like the Royal Mail can get away 10 with what they have got away with. It's only very, 11 very recently that I've started to see in the 12 newspapers across the water obviously very recently 13 here the devastation that they have done. I can't 14 understand how it got so far or where was the 15 Government at this stage? Were they not aware of it? 16 You know, this is the disappointing thing about 17 it. Who was overseeing this Royal Mail or -- to be 18 quite honest with you, I never could figure out who 19 run it or was it a Government body or what it was. 20 But there's serious questions to be asked, really 21 serious, you know, and you know I don't know what the 22 end game is going forward with them. I think they're 23 going to put up a fight for compensation. 24 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: In relation to your claim for 25 compensation, as I've understood what you've told me, 12 1 when the Historical Shortfall Scheme was first 2 announced you just didn't feel able -- 3 A. I wanted it washed off my mind. 4 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: You just wanted to forget about it. 5 A. I wanted it washed away. It's only when it hit the 6 papers again, I think it was the Belfast Telegraph 7 newsletter, some of those papers I was reading, this 8 was about probably 2014 or 2015, I can't remember what 9 years now, but this all -- 10 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: That's what I wanted to ask you about 11 because there have been various stages and I just 12 wanted to be sure that I understood what your evidence 13 was. 14 In round about 2015/2016 there was considerable 15 publicity about the possibility of claiming 16 compensation and then we know that Mr Alan Bates and 17 a number of other postmasters started proceedings in 18 London and that was 2017, okay. And then that was 19 fought through for a good long while and then when it 20 was settled, and that's at the end of 2019, shortly 21 after that, so 2020 now, the Post Office announced 22 what's called the Historical Shortfall Scheme and they 23 gave three months I think it was to start with for 24 people to apply. 25 Now, when you were telling me that you were 13 1 aware of a scheme but you didn't apply in time, are 2 you talking about the litigation that went on in 3 London but you didn't join it or are you talking about 4 the Historical Shortfall Scheme, because that didn't 5 come about until 2020. 6 A. That's correct. 7 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: That's the one. 8 A. I was confused. I didn't know what was what and 9 anyway Covid kicked in in 2020. 10 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, Covid came. 11 A. Game was over and everything was forgot about. 12 I didn't even see papers relating to the final dates. 13 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Then, as I understand it, more recently 14 you made another -- you have made an application. 15 A. I have made an application but -- 16 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: And that's been turned down. 17 A. It's been turned down. Very disappointingly. 18 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: All right. 19 A. Very disappointingly. 20 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I fully understand, everything now, 21 Mr Gormley. 22 A. You know, I still -- I can't figure out myself how 23 this could happen because an IT system, like a cash 24 register, you know, nobody questions the cash 25 register. I always believed that we were wrong, I was 14 1 to blame. Was there slippy fingers or what was the 2 story? I couldn't buy into the system of the IT 3 system being wrong until it hit the newspapers. 4 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Sure, yes, all right. 5 A. And, you know, newspapers is rarely read them. It may 6 have been a news bulletin. I probably did see it in 7 a paper but the news bulletins carried it, not 8 often -- 9 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes. 10 A. -- but they did carry it. And it did register in the 11 end. It started to register me. Here I am blaming -- 12 I blamed my staff and I'd got into a situation where 13 the business and the store started to go down big time 14 because obviously, you know, the blame game was being 15 put on the staff in relation to shortages, you know. 16 But I always made good every week for I knew the 17 consequences, you know. 18 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes. 19 A. We had to make good at all stages. 20 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Well, you're not the first person to 21 tell me that one of the effects of all this is that 22 there's a break down in trust between the 23 subpostmaster and his office staff -- 24 A. Exactly, and that was our case and we were in a very 25 volatile place and I had to use measured words in 15 1 a big way. 2 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes. 3 A. I had to protect staff but, at the same time, the 4 business was going down and down. The supplier was 5 owed a fortune. You know, we weren't able to meet our 6 direct debits, and a gun was put to our head, "What 7 are you going to do about it?" 8 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you very, very much for coming to 9 explain all this to me. 10 A. Thank you, and I have to thank the Hudgell family. 11 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: The idea of a public inquiry is that 12 people can come and tell us what they think is 13 important about all this and it's very important that 14 people come forward; so thank you that you did. 15 A. Thank you very much for taking the time. 16 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: All right. We'll take a short break 17 and we'll go on to the next witness. 18 (9.53 am) 19 (A short break) 20 (9.58 am) 21 MS KENNEDY: Chair, our next witness is Mrs Elliott. 22 FIONA ELLIOTT (sworn) 23 Questioned by MS KENNEDY 24 Q. Could you confirm your full name please. 25 A. Fiona Elliott. 16 1 Q. And in front of you you should have a statement. Do 2 you have a copy of that statement in front of you? 3 A. I have. 4 Q. I believe it runs to seven pages. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did you prepare that statement for this inquiry? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. On the last page there should be a signature. Is that 9 your signature? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Have you read through this statement recently? 12 A. I have. 13 Q. Is it true to the best of your knowledge and belief? 14 A. It is. 15 Q. I am going to start by asking a couple of questions 16 about you? Where do you live? Whereabouts in 17 Northern Ireland? 18 A. Clady, Strabane, County Tyrone. 19 Q. Who do you live with? 20 A. My husband and four children. 21 Q. How long have you been married? 22 A. 20 years. 23 Q. Can you tell us a bit about your area and where you 24 grew up? 25 A. It's a small rural village just on the border between 17 1 Donegal and Tyrone and it's a very close-knit 2 community. I've lived there all my life, so I have, 3 and my family have all lived there for years as well. 4 Q. Why did you want to buy a post office? 5 A. It had come up for sale, the shop and the post office 6 and a house beside it, and we thought it would be 7 a good opportunity, a good pension for us and take us 8 on to retirement. So we put an offer on it and we 9 bought it. 10 Q. And it was the post office in your town? 11 A. It was. It was the only post office and shop in the 12 wee village. 13 Q. Can you describe the post office and what came with 14 it? 15 A. The post office was in a separate wee room on the 16 shopfloor and it had a retail shop and then beside it 17 was a buy to let house as well, so it was in a huge 18 car park to the side. 19 Q. You bought that in around 2005? 20 A. Uhuh uhuh. 21 Q. What training did you receive when you took over your 22 post office? 23 A. I received one day on site training so I did, me and 24 the assistant. 25 Q. How adequate did you find that training? 18 1 A. It was really quick. We didn't learn a lot, just 2 really about the daily transactions and stuff like 3 that. I wasn't sure about rolling over and stuff 4 weekly but the assistant had been there before and 5 I kept her on as an employee, so she was more aware of 6 how to do everything rather than me so she was but the 7 training wasn't enough and I did keep ringing up 8 asking for extra training and extra support and 9 I never got it. 10 Q. How did you find Horizon to use? 11 A. At the start it was grand, when we moved in to the 12 post office it was fine and then we kept thinking that 13 it was the internet was slow and we kept getting all 14 these discrepancies and shortfalls. So it ended up 15 then that I rang up as well the internet company and 16 thought to them because we were so rural that it was 17 going down, the internet wasn't working properly and 18 the transactions weren't recording properly. 19 We tried everything to see what was going wrong 20 and why all these shortfalls were coming up in the 21 system so we did and we kept ringing up the helpline 22 and asking for further help and asking for -- I asked 23 for an audit, I asked for them to come out and check 24 where all these shortfalls were going and 25 discrepancies, but it was only when they came out and 19 1 done a big audit that they founds thousands missing. 2 Q. You have mentioned calling the helpline. I believe 3 you kept a log of all the calls? 4 A. Aye, I have a log. 5 Q. Why did you keep a log of all times you called the 6 helpline? 7 A. Because the time that they came and suspended me prior 8 to investigation I got my solicitor to request the 9 call logs. So because I knew I had done nothing wrong 10 and we couldn't find out where this money was going. 11 Somebody had to be taking it and we were blaming staff 12 and we were doubting ourselves, and we thought we were 13 doing stuff wrong. So when I got suspended my 14 solicitor went and contacted Post Office, asked for 15 a copy of the call log and everything was there, me 16 ringing up all the time about the shortfalls. So 17 luckily enough I had rang up and reported all the 18 shortfalls and the discrepancies, and I asked for help 19 and stuff like that. That didn't happen. I didn't 20 get the extra help or support we needed. 21 Q. What was it like blaming your staff? 22 A. Well, they doubted theirselves too. You know, we were 23 all in together. We were working late at night trying 24 to get the money cashed up and find out where the 25 money went to. We were going through bundles at 20 1 nighttime looking to see was people stealing scratch 2 cards on us, was there Lotto money missing. We didn't 3 know where it was going. We were spending hours at 4 night on a Wednesday night when we were rolling over 5 trying to get it -- and I used to have to just go over 6 to the shop, take the money out of the shop till and 7 put it into the Post Office counter to keep it right 8 because I knew we had to always had to keep the 9 Post Office right. We were told that from day 1, you 10 had to make good any shortfalls or any discrepancies. 11 So I kept doing that. 12 Started off at about £60/£80 a week at the start 13 then it went up to maybe £200 or £300 a week and then 14 when they came out, finally came out to me, it was 15 a £6,000 shortfall that day. We don't know where it 16 came out of because we had rolled over night before, 17 we made everything right. This £6,000 just appeared 18 in the system and we don't know where it came from. 19 Q. When you're talking about them coming out to you, you 20 are referring to audit that was in around 2008/2009? 21 A. That's right. 22 Q. What was that audit like. How were you treated? 23 A. They were there when I went down in the morning. 24 There was two of them there. They came in, spent 25 a couple of hours in the place, in the post office, 21 1 and we kind of stood back a bit and they just said, 2 "There's a shortfall here of 6,000 showing in the 3 system and we need to get that 6,000 now or you will 4 be -- you'll have a criminal offence£", and I said, 5 "Right, how did that come out at 6,000 just appear in 6 the system." 7 I said, "I'm constantly putting money here, all 8 the time, hundreds a pounds every week and never 9 showed up that huge amount." 10 I said, "What will I do now", and they said, 11 "You'll have to pay it". I hadn't got it in the shop 12 till so I ended up by saying can I go to the bank and 13 the bank was closed from 1.00 to 2.00 on lunch and 14 they said no, that I couldn't leave and go that far or 15 they couldn't wait on the bank to open. So I offered 16 them a cheque and at that time we were paying all our 17 suppliers by cheque, there was no really online bank 18 and stuff like that. So I said, "Can I give yous 19 a cheque for the shortfall", and they said no they 20 wanted cash. 21 So then I went then and my brother owned a car 22 business in the village as well and I asked him would 23 he have any cash and he said, "Aye, there's cash 24 there", so I got the cash off him and gave it to the 25 Post Office and I never got a receipt for it. 22 1 Q. What happened after you gave them that money? 2 A. They left then and they suspended me and they told me 3 that I can't work in the Post Office until further 4 investigation's done but the assistant was allowed to 5 be there. So she stayed on and done all the hours so 6 she did, but I didn't go down at all, you know, for 7 them six weeks and then I was called up to Belfast 8 then for a meeting but in between times, my 9 solicitor -- I'd went to the solicitor, got the call 10 logs, and the solicitor had been in contact with the 11 Post Office about it. So when I went up then to the 12 head Post Office I was took into a room with I think 13 there might have been four men in the room and one of 14 them was Brian Trotter. He was in the interview 15 notes, and they said to me that there would be no 16 further criminal offences or anything like that so 17 that I could go back to work with Post Office. 18 So I didn't really want to go back to work in it 19 because the people in the village were kind of saying, 20 you know, she's closing the post office on us and the 21 shop was struggling, trying to keep post office open. 22 I just didn't have the heart to go down to it then, so 23 I didn't. So I ended up keeping the assistant on. 24 She done all the hours in it and then they offered me 25 my redundancy and they were trying to close some of 23 1 the smaller post offices, wee rural ones at this time, 2 and I thought, "Good opportunity, I'll take my 3 redundancy because I don't want to go in the door 4 again", and I ended up just taking my redundancy and 5 we rented shop end out to someone else and they had 6 the same problems and it was all repossessed. The 7 bank took it and sold it off for I think 40,000 for 8 the whole business and we paid 322,000, and it's lying 9 now all boarded up, and the house is the same, all 10 boarded up and run down. 11 Q. How does it make you feel to see your shop in the 12 centre of your community -- 13 A. Angry and hurtful, because we thought this was going 14 to be a family business and we would have it into 15 retirement and have our pension out of it and stuff 16 but none of that happened. It just had to be closed 17 down. 18 Q. You recently applied for compensation from the 19 Historical Shortfall Scheme; is that right? 20 A. I did, I applied. 21 Q. How much roughly did you claim and how did you go 22 about calculating that? 23 A. My accountant helped me complete it but I didn't get 24 no legal assistance at all, so I done most of the form 25 myself and by the time I put in all the losses and my 24 1 wages that I lost out on and the retail end of it, and 2 then I had two houses as well repossessed, buy to let 3 properties, so by the time I put on that, it ended up 4 at just over a million pounds, and they sent me an 5 offer of 24,000 which was -- I was disgusted, you 6 know, 24,000 doesn't even cover what I put in, you 7 know, so it doesn't. I was totally disgusted. 8 Q. I think you say in your statement you were invited to 9 a meeting; is that right? 10 A. I'm invited now to do a Zoom call at the end of June. 11 They tried to get me to do a Zoom call this week 12 before I came here but we changed it to the end of 13 June. 14 Q. How do you feel about meeting with them? 15 A. Well, I feel more comfortable now because I have David 16 on side with me and the solicitors and I have a legal 17 team there now, whereas I couldn't have done it on my 18 own, no. Couldn't have done it on my own. So I'm 19 hoping now that we get what we deserve and that the 20 people are held accountable as well. 21 Q. I'm now going, to ask you some questions about the 22 impact -- 23 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Just before you get to that point, 24 sorry, the form that you completed in order to make 25 your application to the scheme, you said you completed 25 1 mainly yourself. 2 A. I did. 3 Q. You're not a lawyer; you're not an accountant. 4 A. No. 5 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: It may have been onerous for you to do 6 it but did you feel able to complete it 7 satisfactorily? 8 A. Well, it was kind of rushed because the closing 9 date -- we were only given a quite short time. 10 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, I know that. 11 A. So it was kind of rushed. So I did -- no, I would 12 have needed help to do it really. 13 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: And you did have some help from your 14 accountant -- 15 A. My accountant, I just phoned her up. 16 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: -- to formulate the figures. 17 A. Because it was during the lock down as well so we 18 couldn't get out to meet solicitors and accountants 19 and stuff so I was just doing it on the phone. 20 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: And you told me Mr Enright is going to 21 help you at meeting, so I follow all that. Thanks 22 very much. 23 MS KENNEDY: I'm going to ask you some questions about the 24 impact all of this has had on you. You've mentioned 25 some of the financial impacts. Is there anything else 26 1 you wanted to say on the financial impact that this 2 has had on you? 3 A. It was just really stressful and like we lost that 4 business, the shop business, and then we lost the two 5 properties, you know. So financially it was terrible 6 at the time. Now, we're back, me and my husband, both 7 back working full-time whereas we should be getting 8 ready to get into retirement and, you know, enjoy 9 life. 10 Q. What do you do now for a living? 11 A. Childcare. 12 Q. And what impact has all of this had on your family? 13 A. My family were very supportive of me and they knew I'd 14 done nothing wrong and they knew it was an honest 15 mistake and they're still very supportive the whole 16 way through, so they are, but at the time it did have 17 a lot of impact on us, so it did. 18 I was really, really stressed. We were spending 19 hours looking for this money every night and my 20 husband was the same, stressed, and we thought the 21 people in the village were blaming us for closing the 22 one local shop that they had and the post office. 23 Then people have to travel three miles to the next 24 post office to get their pensions and stuff and then 25 there was elderly people that couldn't drive and stuff 27 1 and we felt that we were letting down the people in 2 the community by closing the shop and the post office, 3 you know, and that we were getting blamed for closing 4 it all up and it wasn't us at all. We would have been 5 still there only this all happened. 6 Q. How do you feel that affected your life in that 7 community? 8 A. Well, everybody is still very supportive of me in the 9 community and I get on well with everybody but I just 10 feel that I've let everybody down. 11 Q. What about the impact on your health. You mentioned 12 stress. Anything else? 13 A. Stress and I had stress-related chest pains, so I did, 14 as well at the time, just really stressed about it 15 all. 16 Q. What would you like from the Post Office now? 17 A. I would just like those that are responsible for all 18 this to be accountable and I would want everybody to 19 have their fair compensation and prompt compensation. 20 You know, we've been waiting about now 10 21 years/15 years for all this, and they were quick 22 enough to take all our money and now they won't pay us 23 back for what we've put in, what we've lost. 24 Q. Is there anything else you'd like to say to the Chair? 25 A. I do have a wee statement. 28 1 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes. 2 A. I would like to thank Sir Wyn for coming to Belfast 3 for human impact hearings today and yesterday. I now 4 hope that the Post Office finally takes responsibility 5 for their actions and apologises. I also want 6 accountability for their actions. I would like the 7 Post Office to compensate fairly and promptly the 8 people whose lives and businesses have been ruined. 9 I want to be put back in the financial position I was 10 in before this all happened. I hope we can all move 11 forward from this and find some closure soon. 12 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you very much. Well, I'm going 13 to hear some summaries of people's witness statements 14 being read this morning but it may be that you'll be 15 the last personal witness, if I can put it in that 16 way, that I hear from in these human impact sessions. 17 So thank you very much for coming and, as I said 18 in Glasgow, and I repeat here, I'm really glad that 19 we've gone to Glasgow or come to Glasgow or gone to 20 Glasgow and come to Belfast because in fact we've 21 heard stories which, there's always something a bit 22 different and certainly the stories in Northern 23 Ireland have proved that without any shadow of doubt. 24 So thank you and thanks everyone in Northern 25 Ireland who participated in this part of our Inquiry. 29 1 A. Thank you. 2 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Right, another five minutes, Mr Blake. 3 We are moving with speed and efficiency, so another 4 five minutes won't harm us. 5 (10.15 am) 6 (A short break) 7 (10.23 am) 8 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: When you're ready, Mr Enright. 9 MR ENRIGHT: Good morning, Chair. I think it is important 10 to re-state you read very carefully the full witness 11 statements of all of witnesses, including those whose 12 summaries I am to read to you now. 13 MAUREEN MACELBY, statement summarised 14 Sir, Mrs Maureen MacElby was the subpostmistress 15 at the Post Office branch in Clanabogan, Omagh, in 16 Northern Ireland from 1990 to 2001. 17 Maureen initially operated the post office on 18 the paper-based accounting system without any 19 difficulties. Post Office introduced its Horizon 20 system into her branch in approximately 1999. Maureen 21 immediately began to experience discrepancies. When 22 Horizon was introduced Maureen and her employee were 23 promised three days of training. However, she says, 24 "In reality, we had at most an hour in a local hotel". 25 When Maureen experienced shortfalls on the Horizon 30 1 System she would contact the helpline for assistance. 2 Maureen says: 3 "I found the helpline to be anything but 4 helpful." 5 Maureen estimates that she paid in the region of 6 £25,000 to 30,000 in shortfalls. Prior to Horizon 7 being introduced, Maureen would be audited yearly with 8 no issues. After the introduction of Horizon Maureen 9 recalls Post Office auditors marching into her branch 10 one morning and demanding her keys. She was then told 11 that a shortfall had been identified and she would 12 have no more access to the post office. Maureen says 13 it was terrifying and humiliating. 14 Maureen was accused of stealing thousands of 15 pounds from the Post Office and was subsequently 16 suspended from the Post Office in 2001. Following her 17 suspension, Maureen was repeatedly warned by the 18 Post Office that she could face up to ten years in 19 prison for theft. Maureen was left waiting for two 20 and a half years for the date. She was served notice 21 of prosecution for her case to be heard in court. 22 Maureen was under so much stress during this period 23 that her thyroid ruptured and she had to undergo major 24 surgery on her throat. Her doctor told her this was 25 as a result of stress and that she was lucky to have 31 1 survived. 2 Maureen had three young children and had lost 3 her husband only two years before the problems with 4 Horizon arose. She describes the period leading up to 5 her prosecution as mental torture. 6 Maureen says she had to repeatedly chase the 7 Post Office to proceed with their prosecution of her. 8 Maureen says the Post Office seemed to be in no rush. 9 Maureen knew her health was not going to last due to 10 the stress she was under. 11 Maureen's case eventually came to trial at 12 Dungannon court in 2006. She had to attend court for 13 a full week. She was on a lot of medication because 14 her health was not good due to years of stress and 15 waiting. Maureen describes the experience in court as 16 dreadful. She says: 17 "It was clear in their eyes I was not worthy of 18 the Post Office." 19 Maureen prepared her children for the fact that 20 she might go to jail. However, Maureen stood her 21 ground and the flaws in the Post Office case were 22 exposed and she was found not guilty. 23 Maureen says, "The whole experience was 24 thoroughly traumatic but I was over the moon that 25 I was found innocent". 32 1 Despite being found innocent of all charges 2 Maureen had lost her post office, her income, her 3 investment and was forced to sell her business. 4 Maureen's health declined rapidly after her court case 5 as a result of the years of stress. Maureen's 6 finances were ruined. She had nothing and had to rely 7 on family to help cover her mortgage. Maureen says 8 for a proud woman this was humiliating. 9 Maureen says: 10 "The Post Office took everything from me, quite 11 literally. They took my future, I had planned to run 12 my business up until retirement. I felt the 13 Post Office robbed me of my home life as well. It 14 feels as though my children just grew up, got married 15 and moved on without me because I was just not present 16 anymore. I was there but only in vision. I have 17 missed out on so much of my life because of the 18 Post Office." 19 JOHN VICTOR HEATH, statement summarised 20 MR ENRIGHT: Sir, Mr John Victor Heath, his wife, Helen, 21 became the subpostmistress of the Bradford-on-Avon 22 Post Office in 2003. 23 Mr Heath occupied an office within the premises 24 from which he ran his occupational safety and health 25 consultancy business. This was with the agreement of 33 1 Post Office Limited and the landlord of the premises. 2 Mrs Heath's running of the Post Office was very 3 smooth until the introduction of the Horizon System in 4 approximately 2005. Shortfalls soon appeared and 5 despite Mrs Heath's endeavours to trace them, no cause 6 could be found. She had no option but to use her own 7 money to repay them as she was told by the helpline 8 that she was liable for the losses. 9 She was told that no other branch was 10 experiencing the same phantom losses as she called 11 them. The couple became paranoid and suspicious, 12 something not previously in their nature. To protect 13 his family's increasingly -- his wife's increasingly 14 fragile mental state because of the shortfalls 15 Mr Heath ploughed his own money into the Post Office 16 to make good the shortfalls. Sadly, Mrs Heath died in 17 2011 and it was agreed with Post Office Limited that 18 he assume the role of subpostmaster with his son 19 taking over the day-to-day running of the branch. 20 The shortfalls continued and Mr Heath requested 21 an audit to help identify where they were coming from. 22 A shortfall of over £9,000 was discovered during the 23 audit. Mr Heath wrote a cheque for the full amount 24 using money he had received from the insurance 25 following the death of his wife. 34 1 He was told in very blunt terms that his 2 contract would be terminated. Post Office Limited 3 moved the branch out of the premises but Mr Heath was 4 still liable for the rent for a further two years. 5 Mr Heath estimates that the financial losses incurred 6 could be as much as £156,000. He also suffered 7 emotionally and physically. He had a mini-stroke in 8 2013. His son's marriage broke down. His consultancy 9 business collapsed. 10 Mr Heath would like to be compensated for the 11 losses. However, he does state there can never be any 12 compensation for the pain and suffering that we have 13 experienced. 14 KAMALJIT KOONER SINGH, statement summarised 15 MR ENRIGHT: Sir, Mr Kamaljit Kooner Singh was 16 a subpostmaster in Narborough Post Office and Rugeley 17 Post Office from around December 2007 to May 2009. 18 Mr Kooner says he experienced various shortfalls of 19 various amounts at both his branches during his tenure 20 as subpostmaster. In October 2008, the Rugeley branch 21 experienced a discrepancy of approximately £9,500. 22 Kamaljit believed this was due to an accounting error 23 and made a record of the discrepancy. 24 In April 2009, the final audit took place at the 25 Rugeley branch. Kamaljit was aware of the £9,500 35 1 shortfall. However, at the audit, the shortfall was 2 alleged to have been £14,146.01. This was a surprise. 3 Kamaljit agreed to pay the shortfall and did so in 4 three instalments. The auditors then attended the 5 Narborough branch and found shortfalls there as well. 6 Kamaljit was suspended from both branches and 7 prevented from accessing his own records to 8 investigate the shortfalls. Kamaljit wrote letters to 9 Colin Burston, Agent Contracts Manager, explaining 10 that he had not taken any money and he believed that 11 there was an error on the Horizon System. Kamaljit's 12 contract was terminated by the Post Office in 13 May 2009. 14 Kamaljit attended an appeals meeting in 15 June 2009. During these meeting, Kamaljit says: 16 "I again made my opinion that the alleged losses 17 were due to a system error." 18 Kamaljit sought assistance from the National 19 Federation of SubPostmasters for his appeal but he 20 says they were not at all helpful. 21 Kamaljit says: 22 "It was difficult to prove any errors in the 23 Horizon and the Post Office used their helpless line 24 to hide behind when anyone complained of problems with 25 the system. I was informed countless times that I was 36 1 the only subpostmaster experiencing these problems. 2 They made me feel alone and inadequate." 3 Kamaljit fell heavily in debt as he could no 4 longer make his mortgage payments as he had lost his 5 income from Post Office. Kamaljit was also unable to 6 support his son in university and was having to borrow 7 money from friends and family. Kamaljit says that he 8 felt like a criminal: 9 "... as though I was a bad person with bad 10 intentions which is completely opposite to who 11 I actually am." 12 Kamaljit's health deteriorated due to the 13 immense stress he was under. Kamaljit says: 14 "I was in such a dark place that I contemplated 15 ending it all and taking my own life. I am fortunate 16 in the sense that I didn't make any attempts to do 17 so." 18 Kamaljit felt guided towards God and visited the 19 temple, quietly listening to prayers and reading 20 through the Holy Book. Over time, this reduced his 21 suicidal thoughts. Kamaljit now has a job working in 22 a warehouse. He says this is a job to pay the bills 23 and mortgage. Kamaljit says: 24 "I do not use a post office at all anymore. I 25 want the Post Office to be held accountable and to 37 1 admit that they have done wrong. For me, compensation 2 is not enough. I want the truth to come out and, most 3 importantly, I want to know how they are going to look 4 after current subpostmasters because if nothing 5 changes, what is the point?" 6 RACHEL WILLIAMS, statement summarised 7 Sir, Ms Rachel Williams was the subpostmistress 8 of Allerton Post Office in Axbridge, Somerset from 9 April 2006 to November 2008. She and her husband 10 owned a farm and sold farm products from the store in 11 addition to running the Post Office. Ms Williams 12 bought the Post Office when the owners retired. 13 Ms Williams and her husband sold their home and moved 14 into a mobile home and the Post Office was run from 15 a Portakabin, which became part of their farm grounds. 16 Ms Williams had some in-branch training on 17 Horizon which she found inadequate and she was not 18 confident in using the Horizon System. Ms Williams 19 began to experience shortfalls and was advised to make 20 these good by using a transaction correction. The 21 system would then balance and she would be able to 22 trade. Ms Williams felt uneasy using this method and 23 requested further training. 24 In June 2008, her branch was audited and 25 a shortfall of over £8,000 was discovered and Rachel 38 1 was suspended. Ms Williams paid this in instalments 2 over 18 months, as she was told she was liable for the 3 shortfall. Rachel disputed the suspension and was 4 interviewed in July 2008. The threat of criminal 5 proceedings was present. 6 Ms Williams' contract was terminated by 7 Post Office in September 2008. She appealed but was 8 unsuccessful. Ms Williams' business became unviable 9 without the Post Office. She suffered stress and 10 anxiety over the shortfalls and had to borrow money to 11 pay the shortfalls. Ms Williams was terrified of 12 criminal prosecution. There were rumours in the 13 village that she had stolen from the Post Office as it 14 had closed suddenly. 15 Her husband became ill because of the stress. 16 Rachel feels she cannot move on from what happened to 17 her. Ms Williams says: 18 "We, as a group of subpostmasters, have been in 19 a cycle of hope and then disappointment. I hope more 20 than anything that the Post Office will finally be 21 held to account." 22 TERENCE WALTERS, statement summarised 23 Sir, Mr Terence Walters was a subpostmaster from 24 May 2005 to February 2008. Mr Walters was an engineer 25 in a box-making plant before becoming a subpostmaster. 39 1 Mr Walters had a week's training before taking on the 2 branch. He says the training was basic and 3 inadequate. It focussed on selling products rather 4 than reconciliations on the Horizon System. 5 Mr Walters requested further training on Horizon but 6 this was refused. He says he was effectively left to 7 get on with it. 8 Mr Walters contacted the helpline as much as 9 four times a day during the first week. He was told 10 not to put any shortfalls in a suspense account and 11 the system would right itself. Mr Walters was also 12 told that he was liable to pay the shortfalls. He 13 experienced a variety of issues regarding missing 14 cash, cheques and spoiled labels all to do with the 15 Horizon system. The branch was audited in 16 November 2007 and a shortfall of £14,000 in cash and 17 stock was allegedly found. 18 Mr Walters was interviewed by the Post Office 19 and he was subsequently suspended without pay. Two 20 months later, Mr Walters received a letter from the 21 Post Office stating that his branch would be closed on 22 the basis that it was within a mile of another branch. 23 His contract was terminated. Mr Walters believes that 24 the Post Office always intended to close his branch 25 and did not want to pay compensation, so used the 40 1 shortfall as an excuse. 2 After the closure of the Post Office, the 3 newsagents lost footfall and the business declined and 4 eventually closed. Mr Walters had to sell the 5 premises and his home to pay the debts. Mr Walters 6 now lives in rented accommodation. Mr Walters says 7 the Post Office continued to chase him for payment. 8 There remains a county court judgment against him for 9 over £17,000. Mr Walters blames the Post Office for 10 his huge financial loss and loss of reputation. 11 Mr Walters says he fell into depression and was 12 prescribed antidepressants as a result. Mr Walters 13 says he turned to alcohol and became a recluse. 14 Mr Walters says he wants his happiness back. 15 Mr Walters says: 16 "First and foremost, I would like the Inquiry to 17 give us compensation. The Post Office and Department 18 of Business delay and delay. They did not delay when 19 they wanted money from me. Secondly, I want justice. 20 I want our lives back now." 21 VIRENDRA BAJAJ, statement summarised 22 Mr Virendra Bajaj was a subpostmaster from 23 April 1990 to June 2006 at the Torquay Road 24 Post Office in Chelmsford. 25 As part of the family business it was always 41 1 intended that Virendra would run and operate a post 2 office as a subpostmaster. Virendra worked in his 3 brother's post office during his studies for two years 4 full time after leaving college before managing his 5 own branch. 6 Between 1990 and 1999, Mr Bajaj operated his 7 post office using, old paper-based bookkeeping system. 8 During that time, Mr Bajaj did not experience any 9 serious discrepancies. However, in 1999 Mr Bajaj was 10 informed that the Horizon System was being introduced 11 to his branch. He received one-and-a-half days' 12 training in a hotel. Mr Bajaj's experience was that 13 the training was rushed and, as a result, Mr Bajaj 14 felt overwhelmed confused by the Horizon System. 15 Mr Bajaj's experience of the Horizon helpline, 16 which he says he called four to five times per week, 17 was that the operators were unhelpful and 18 inexperienced in resolving the issues which Mr Bajaj 19 was experiencing. 20 Mr Bajaj faced regular discrepancies with the 21 Horizon System, encountering both large surpluses and 22 shortfalls. Mr Bajaj felt compelled to use his own 23 money to correct the errors which Horizon displayed. 24 The Post Office demanded that he pay to account for 25 shortfalls but the Post Office would quickly correct 42 1 surpluses by simply taking the money. 2 Mr Bajaj developed severe mental health 3 problems. He began to get knots in his stomach and 4 bouts of anxiety about the balancing process on 5 Wednesdays because he did not know what Horizon would 6 show and how much he would have to use of his own 7 money to correct the errors. When an audit found an 8 alleged discrepancy of nearly £9,000 in May 2006, 9 Mr Bajaj and his family could no longer afford to 10 inject money into the business. Mr Bajaj resigned. 11 He and his family had put 16 years into their 12 business. He had developed a reputation of a man with 13 integrity in his local community but was forced to 14 give it all up. Mr Bajaj's father had to sell the 15 business at a significant undervalue. 16 Mr Bajaj suffered with severe stress and 17 depression. His ill health which he attributes to the 18 Post Office's conduct left him unable to work from the 19 date of his resignation in June 2006 until April 2007. 20 With his father using his pension to pay the 21 mortgage, Mr Bajaj had to go to the Job Centre every 22 fortnight. Later, he ran a shop from the same 23 premises but the business was not profitable and, with 24 no earnings, Mr Bajaj had to rely on tax credits and 25 social welfare. Mr Bajaj lives very close to his old 43 1 Post Office. When he walks past it, he feels a deep 2 sense of loss and sadness at what was taken from him. 3 Mr Bajaj's father is now 90. His health is failing 4 and his memory is fading. Mr Bajaj feels deeply 5 aggrieved that his father will not be able to fully 6 appreciate the vindication which Mr Bajaj wishes to 7 achieve. He fears that his father will never know or 8 understand that he is not a thief and that the failure 9 of the business and the devastation of the family's 10 finances was not his fault. 11 Mr Bajaj wants the Post Office and those 12 complicit in this scandal to be held accountable for 13 their actions. He believes that they should openly 14 and publicly acknowledge and apologise to him and to 15 his family. He wants Post Office to come to see his 16 family's former post office to see where his dreams 17 were shattered and to look into his and his family's 18 eyes and explain why he was treated as he was. 19 WITNESS 0204, statement summarised 20 Sir, finally we have anonymous Witness 0204, 21 whom I will refer to as the witness. 22 The witness has been a subpostmistress since 23 November 2010. She also runs the village shop from 24 the same premises in which the post office is 25 operated. The witness did not experience problems 44 1 with the post offices that she ran in previous years 2 but has experienced serious difficulties with the 3 Horizon System in her branch. On one occasion, the 4 witness received a transaction correction on Horizon 5 for a MoneyGram transaction even though she had never 6 undertaken a single MoneyGram transaction. 7 A Mr Longbottom conducted an audit at the branch 8 and said that he could not find anything wrong. He 9 requested the witness's transaction logs. However, 10 the Post Office refused him access to them. The 11 witness was advised off the record by Mr Longbottom 12 not to pay the Horizon shortfall as it would be 13 classed by the Post Office as an admission of guilt. 14 However, the Post Office made deductions from the 15 witness's remuneration in July 2017, without her 16 permission, to pay the alleged shortfalls. 17 The witness lived in fear of the Wednesday 18 balance process every week over the past 12 years. 19 She has constantly had to put in money in to balance 20 the Horizon System. The witness's friendships with 21 her employees has suffered. One long-standing 22 employee of eight years believed the witness blamed 23 her for a shortfall. 24 The witness's relationships with customers 25 deteriorated as a result of her problems with Horizon, 45 1 as some believed there is no smoke without fire. The 2 witness put her post office on the market but was 3 unable to sell the premises. The witness says: 4 "Hundreds of decent people suffered and suffered 5 badly. Despite recent improvements, I have decided 6 that I must stop being a subpostmistress. When my 7 post office closes, the village in which I live and 8 the surrounding villages will no longer have access to 9 a vital service. It will be a tragedy for my 10 community. However, I simply cannot take the risk of 11 continuing to work as a subpostmistress for fear of 12 experiencing another large shortfall." 13 MR BLAKE: Thank you, Chair. Although we are still 14 technically in Northern Ireland, we are travelling to 15 Yorkshire now to hear witness summaries from Mr Lee 16 Castleton and his daughter Millie Jo Castleton. I 17 will start with Lee Castleton. 18 LEE CASTLETON, statement summarised 19 "I make this statement to explain the impact 20 that the civil claim against me made by the 21 Post Office in 2006 and the judgment against me by 22 Judge Havery QC in the High Court in January 2007 and 23 the effect of my bankruptcy upon me and my family. 24 "From 2003 to 2006, I was the postmaster of 25 Marine Drive Post Office in Bridlington in Yorkshire. 46 1 When we moved to Bridlington, we had owned our family 2 home. We invested £85,000 from the sale of our home 3 in acquiring the Post Office and the retail outlet. 4 "We purchased the Post Office and the retail 5 business for £300,000 and the retail stock cost 6 £35,000. We had a mortgage of £215,000. In 2005, the 7 Post Office brought a civil claim against me alleging 8 that I was liable for shortfalls at my Post Office 9 branch in the sum of about £26,000. At the time that 10 the Post Office made the claim for the £26,000, I had 11 made 91 telephone calls to the Post Office explaining 12 the issues that I had with balancing problems with my 13 Horizon terminals at my branch. The Post Office 14 alleged that I had taken the money. That was not 15 true. 16 "Prior to the civil claim that was brought in 17 the High Court in London, even though the claim 18 against me was only £26,000, Mr Stephen Dilley, a 19 solicitor at Bond Pearce, the Post Office's 20 solicitors, told me that if I defended the claim, the 21 Post Office would ruin me. In the course of the trial 22 in the High Court, Mr Richard Morgan, the 23 Post Office's barrister, said to the judge, Judge 24 Havery, Queen's Counsel, that I was a thief. The 25 judge told Mr Morgan that that was the wrong court to 47 1 allege that. 2 "I was unrepresented at my trial and it went 3 against me because I had no money left. The 4 Post Office in 2007 was awarded £321,000 in costs. 5 That resulted in my bankruptcy. I still have 6 a trustee in bankruptcy. I spent more than £80,000 on 7 legal costs including 45,000 that I raised by 8 a remortgage defending the claim against me, but I ran 9 out of money and had nothing left, so when it came to 10 my trial I was on my own. That is not including my 11 legal expenses cover which had run out. 12 "I eventually in 2020 received £28,500 in 13 compensation out of the Group Litigation. For almost 14 six months, my solicitors refused to give me a copy of 15 the settlement deed with the Post Office on the basis 16 that it was confidential and I couldn't see it. 17 I first saw the terms of the settlement in June 2020. 18 "The Post Office from 2004 in the civil claim 19 against me and my bankruptcy has destroyed my life and 20 the lives of my family. At the time, I was treated 21 like a thief in our community and people spoke openly 22 about me going to prison. My daughter Millie almost 23 died from anorexia nervosa. My wife suffered from 24 stress-induced epilepsy. I was rendered almost 25 destitute by the civil claim against me. For a long 48 1 time, I worked away from home and lived in my car to 2 save costs. When in 2008 our water boiler broke, it 3 took two years to save enough money to get a 4 replacement during which time we lived without hot 5 water. 6 "I believe that at my trial untruthful evidence 7 was given against me by Ann Chambers of Fujitsu and 8 also by the Post Office. I understand that any claim 9 I might have had for malicious prosecution was given 10 up in the settlement that was reached in 2019. I only 11 saw the settlement agreement for the first time in 12 June 2020." 13 MILLIE JO CASTLETON, statement summarised 14 Moving on to Milly Jo Castleton: 15 "I am the daughter of Mr Lee Castleton, a former 16 postmaster. My family moved to run a small newsagents 17 post office in 2003. For over 17 years the 18 Post Office has had a significant part of my life. 19 I'm now 26. In 2004, when the Post Office started all 20 this, I was 8. We were to be thrown into something 21 that has drastically shaped the rest of our lives. 22 "The Post Office brought civil proceedings 23 against my father in the High Court in 2006 on a false 24 basis. I was 8 years old when I first took note the 25 confusion, frustration and anxiety leaching into my 49 1 home before talks of courts, trials and accusations of 2 theft. This was an ordeal that not only cost my 3 father legal fees and made him bankrupt, it blackened 4 our family name, branded thieves and liars. 5 "It was also a lonely time. The financial 6 strain of legal fees and supporting the family saw my 7 Dad working near 100-hour weeks often spending days on 8 end away from us. He became a stranger to me, someone 9 I barely saw and lost a close relationship with. My 10 mother worked too during the day in the newsagents we 11 still had, but which was failing due to the label 12 attached to us after the legal case. 13 "I remember feeling terrified on the school bus 14 when I was a child. I was asked, 'Didn't your Dad 15 steal lots of money or something?' I removed myself 16 from social interaction. I lost faith in everybody 17 around me over the years. Living in a constant cycle 18 of fear and anxiety led me to not even want to go to 19 the school canteen. Lunch period became a time for me 20 to hide. The cycle was impossible to escape. 21 "At home I was dealing with parents who were 22 working their hardest to provide, utterly pained by 23 the stress that the Post Office trial caused them. 24 Dad was working insane hours. My mother was also 25 working as much as she could but also dealing with 50 1 stress-induced epilepsy. These seizures were 2 unpredictable. I remember having to handle her 3 seizures alone as a child, sometimes in the middle of 4 the night. When Dad was away, I'd sleep beside her 5 just in case. 6 "I felt helpless. I didn't tell my parents 7 about the bullying or my social withdrawal. They 8 didn't know I spent my breaks sitting alone or just 9 walking around. They didn't know I could go a day or 10 two without really talking. They didn't know that 11 I was assaulted on the school bus and had to run off 12 on the first stop, wet from water being thrown at me, 13 being spat on. I spent days out in the town alone 14 walking around for hours, pretending I met with 15 friends when I didn't. By the time I was 17, I was 16 wrecked by feelings of self-loathing, depression and 17 feeling like nothing more than a burden to my family. 18 The Post Office just loomed too large in our lives, 19 controlling every aspect of our beings. 20 "I had spent years in self-imposed isolation 21 afraid of adults and peers. I often feel I had no 22 teenage experience. By the age of 18, I couldn't even 23 tell you about my favourite activities, shoes or 24 hobbies. I didn't put any time to myself. I was 25 anxious about going to university. Mum was still 51 1 having seizures and Dad was still fighting a legal 2 battle. I felt guilty also related to the fear of 3 spending money. 4 "At university, I walked. Some days I walked 5 for eight or more hours without a break. This whilst 6 being on a diet that was absolute minimum resulted in 7 me fainting a few times in the middle of the town. My 8 late teens and early 20s were governed by my eating 9 disorder and mental anxieties. I began to sink under 10 the weight of it and grabbed for some sense of 11 control. 12 "By the end of my first year at university, 13 I had been diagnosed as anorexic. I was too sick to 14 go into my second year. I spent a year out. My 15 lowest weight saw we weighing little more than 5 16 stone. I had to stay in hospital for heart-related 17 issues for days on end. The surrender of a broken 18 spirit, the pain and self-loathing of someone who just 19 couldn't escape such a terrible situation. 20 "It took years, relapses, hospital stays, scares 21 about my heart possibly failing, and a period of 22 months in a day clinic post graduation. I walked for 23 my degree in 2017 weighing 5 and a half stone. 24 I would have graduated in 2016 but I had to take a gap 25 year in 2014 to 2015 because of medical intervention 52 1 because my health problems and my eating disorder. 2 "This is what the Post Office did to me and my 3 family. While my story won't be the only one, the 4 mental toll that so many years of fighting has taken 5 is frightening." 6 Thank you, Chair. Those are two summaries. The 7 full statements will be available on the website as 8 well. 9 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Fine. Mr Enright, I see you've 10 disappeared to the back of the room. Can I just ask 11 you one or two questions to confirm a few things? Am 12 I now correct in thinking that all of the Core 13 Participants whom you represent have either made 14 a written statement, given oral evidence, and had 15 a summary of their evidence read out if they did not 16 give oral evidence? 17 MR ENRIGHT: That's correct, sir. There is one late Core 18 Participant you granted Core Participant status to, 19 Margaret White, whose conviction has been quashed and 20 you have her full statement. 21 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: That's right. So at some point in time 22 we will need to deal formally with Margaret White but, 23 otherwise, we have dealt with all your clients. Thank 24 you very much. 25 So I think that does mean that, subject to 53 1 dealing with Mrs White in some appropriate way, we 2 have now reached the end of the human impact hearings. 3 I'm very grateful, as I have said, to everyone, every 4 single person, who has made these hearings run so 5 efficiently. So that means, so that they're not left 6 out, all the lawyers, all the people who have assisted 7 the people who have given evidence, the ushers and all 8 my team, who are first class. 9 In due course we will be moving to other phases. 10 Therefore, I should make it clear that the role of 11 subpostmasters in this Inquiry is not at an end. 12 There are further phases to come in which I will hope 13 and expect that they will participate, but we've dealt 14 with something which is obviously crucially important; 15 namely, the impact upon them. 16 I will leave Belfast wiser than when I came 17 here. So thank you all very much and I will see some 18 of you, at least, in due course. 19 (10.57 am) 20 (The Inquiry adjourned) 21 22 23 24 25 54 1 I N D E X 2 JOHN GORMLEY (sworn) ............................1 3 Questioned by MR BLAKE ..........................1 4 FIONA ELLIOTT (sworn) ..........................16 5 Questioned by MS KENNEDY .......................16 6 MAUREEN MACELBY, statement summarised ..........30 7 KAMALJIT KOONER SINGH, statement summarised ....35 8 RACHEL WILLIAMS, statement summarised ..........38 9 LEE CASTLETON, statement summarised ............46 10 MILLIE JO CASTLETON, statement summarised ......49 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55