1 Tuesday, 1 March 2022 2 (11.00 am) 3 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Bore da i bawb. It being St David's 4 Day, Dydd Dewi. Croeso i Gaerdydd. Welcome to 5 Cardiff. Our first witness is a visitor, so very nice 6 to see you. 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 8 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Now, before we start can I just make 9 a few announcements about today which may be a bit 10 more flexible than we normally are. What we hope to 11 do is to have two witnesses this morning give oral 12 evidence. 13 If time permits this morning, we will also then 14 read in some summaries of witness statements which 15 will take us up to about 1.00. If that summary 16 reading does take place this morning, we won't start 17 it after about 12.40 but if we finish the witnesses by 18 about then, we will then do some reading. 19 This afternoon there's one oral witness. Very 20 unfortunately, after that witness finishes I have to 21 have a break to have a meeting about an unrelated 22 matter. Then if there are any further statements to 23 be read they will be done after my meeting, so around 24 about 3.45. So I'm sorry there's a bit more 25 uncertainty than usual, but I'm sure we'll cope. Over 1 1 to you. 2 MS KENNEDY: Thank you, Chair. Our first witness today is 3 Mrs Wendy Buffrey. 4 WENDY BUFFREY (affirmed) 5 Questioned by MS KENNEDY 6 Q. As I think you know, my name's Ruth Kennedy and I ask 7 questions on behalf of the Inquiry. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Could you confirm your full name for the Inquiry 10 please? 11 A. Wendy Vivian Buffrey. 12 Q. I think you have a copy of your statement there. 13 A. I do. 14 Q. It should be dated 14 January. 15 A. It is. 16 Q. It's 11 pages; is that right? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. If you look at the last page, is that your signature 19 there? 20 A. It is, yes. 21 Q. Have you read through this statement recently? 22 A. I have, yes. 23 Q. Is it true to the best of your knowledge and belief? 24 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 25 Q. I'm going to start by asking a couple of introductory 2 1 questions about you. How old are you now? 2 A. 62. 3 Q. And you live with your husband? 4 A. Yes, I do, yes. 5 Q. How long have you been married? 6 A. 44, coming up to 45 years. 7 Q. What jobs did you do before working for the 8 Post Office? 9 A. Quite a varied thing, working in retail. Then 10 I worked as a rep for a retail company for Johnson's 11 Wax. I've worked for the Ambulance Service and for 12 St John's as a volunteer. 13 Q. Why did you want to become a subpostmistress? 14 A. I'd been repping for ten years and computers came in 15 and it wasn't the same. We used to go to different 16 shops, cash and carries, et cetera, and take their 17 orders for products and show new products, et cetera, 18 and now that all could be done via computer. So 19 I decided that I needed to look for something that was 20 more conducive to staying at home because I was 21 staying away from home a lot with that, and a friend 22 of mine ran a post office and she said would you like 23 to come and try? 24 So I went to her post office and I trained. She 25 trained me up a little bit and then I used to do 3 1 Saturdays for her after I'd finished working where 2 I was and I loved it. It was great. You know, I'm 3 a people person so it was really nice to have people 4 coming, chatting. You know, it was great and I did 5 that for three or four months and then said to my 6 husband, yeah, I think this would be the way to go 7 because I really enjoy it. 8 So then we started looking at different 9 post offices in the area. Some of them had 10 accommodation, some of them didn't. And then 11 Up Hatherley Post Office came on to the market so we 12 went and had a look at that and decided that was the 13 one for us. 14 Q. Why did you think it was the one for you? 15 A. It had -- it was a detached property. The Post Office 16 took up the front half of the ground floor. Behind it 17 we had a lovely big front room, kitchen and things and 18 a lovely garden out the back -- well, it was lovely 19 once we got at it -- and it was, although the shop was 20 there, it was still a very peaceful place to be and 21 the people in the local area were really nice. 22 Q. I think is it Up-Hatherley Post Office? Is that what 23 you said? 24 A. It is, yes. 25 Q. I think you say in your statement you took over as 4 1 subpostmistress in March 1999; is that about right? 2 A. Yes. Yes, I was interviewed for it in '98 and then 3 with trying to sell our shop -- our house, to buy it, 4 and the outgoing subpostmistress was also in a chain 5 to buy, it was March of '99 before we actually moved 6 in. 7 Q. Where in the country was that post office, just 8 broadly? 9 A. Cheltenham. It's in a suburb of Cheltenham. 10 Q. How many staff did you employ at your post office? 11 A. I employed four part-timers in the shop. They all did 12 different hours to make sure we were all covered, and 13 I employed three people in the Post Office, two of 14 them which did full time but sort of overlapped so we 15 were still covered on a Saturday and one that did the 16 busiest times of the week. 17 Q. How busy was your Post Office? 18 A. When I took over it, it was -- well, the salary was 19 about 26,000 when we first took over it but I worked 20 very hard to build that up and we put in a new counter 21 and everything in and made it four counters and I got 22 it up to about 65,000 by the time I was exited. 23 Q. What training did you receive when you took over as 24 subpostmistress? 25 A. I had the training with my friend but when I took over 5 1 as subpostmistress it was still paper-based. I went 2 to I think it was ... I think it was Yate or somewhere 3 like that to go and have a day's training with all the 4 differed paperwork, which forms were for what, how to 5 fill them in, how to sell different products, and then 6 the day we moved in I took over the Post Office so we 7 were moving everything in and I'm trying to learn 8 what's happening with the Post Office I was going to 9 run. 10 I had a trainer that was supposed to be with me 11 for two weeks and after the first week he said I was 12 fine and he just came back for the balance the second 13 week, and that was it. 14 Q. When was Horizon introduced in your branch; do you 15 remember? 16 A. I can't remember the exact date but I think it was 17 between 2001/2002. I'm not sure of the actual date it 18 was. 19 Q. What training did you receive on Horizon? 20 A. We went to a local hotel with a load of other 21 subpostmasters from the area because there was a lot 22 of us that were going live at the same time. There 23 was -- yeah, we went -- I went for a day with one of 24 my staff, leaving the two to cover the Post Office and 25 then the next day they went. But it wasn't even 6 1 really a full day's training. By the time we got 2 there, done a little bit of how to sell a stamp on the 3 screen, and then stopped for lunch, it was about four 4 hours training in total, and we did a little bit on 5 the balance but it wasn't -- you know, you were showed 6 how to put the stamps in, the stock in, the cash in, 7 but they didn't tell you what to do if it wasn't 8 right. 9 So we used to have a little magazine come 10 through called Counter News every week. We sort of 11 gleaned most of our training from that. We didn't 12 have any -- I've heard some of the others say that 13 they had instruction books that they had. We didn't 14 have anything like that. 15 Q. How did you find using Horizon? 16 A. I thought it was quite good. It certainly made my 17 life easier to begin with. You know, it just got so 18 that when the shortcomings did start coming, it was 19 more difficult to find because in the old days when we 20 just had paper you could literally look down and see 21 where any discrepancy was or you go and have a cup of 22 coffee, come back and look at it with new eyes and, 23 oh, that's what it is, and you'd sort it out straight 24 away. But with Horizon you didn't have that ability. 25 Q. What shortfalls or discrepancies did you start to 7 1 notice on the system? 2 A. I didn't have a lot of little shortfalls. It seemed 3 to be all or nothing with mine. The first one I had 4 was over -- I can't remember the exact amount but 5 I put it into -- because we still had the ability to 6 put it into a suspense account then and then when it 7 had been there long enough that they said, you know, 8 you've got to pay this off, it came out of my wages. 9 Q. Is that I think following an audit in around 2004? 10 Would that be about right? 11 A. No. This was a different one during the time. One 12 audit I had and I was over £1,000 down, but one of my 13 staff disappeared off to Greece for a while and I've 14 not seen her since; so I think I paid for her holiday 15 because I was held responsible for that. I was 16 suspended and held responsible for that, and if it 17 hadn't been for her actually ringing the management of 18 the Post Office to see if she was under any suspicion, 19 they wouldn't have come back to me and said that's 20 a very odd thing for somebody to do and, you know, so 21 you can go back to work as long as you make good the 22 amount. So I did. 23 Q. Turning back to the audit that I think you say in your 24 statement happened in 2004, do you remember that 25 audit? 8 1 A. No, I don't. 2 Q. Do you remember how many auditors tended to show up to 3 these? 4 A. It was usually two. It was usually two. I think for 5 the first three audits we had the same two gentlemen 6 for the first three audits that we had, and the fourth 7 audit -- I had a security audit in between and then 8 I had the fourth audit that was two ladies. 9 Q. How did they treat you? 10 A. All was good. They were always welcomed. You know, 11 I had nothing to hide, you know, cup of tea and 12 biscuits, get on with what you want to do. They were 13 fine. One of the audits, I was over a thousand pound 14 out -- I can't remember whether it was just under 15 a thousand or just over a thousand over because they'd 16 sent me three error notices that weren't mine, but I 17 had to put them through because they were under my FAD 18 code. So I put those through. 19 So they wanted me to take the money out and 20 I said, well, no, I'm not going take the money out 21 because that doesn't belong to me. It goes in the 22 tin, in the drawer, ready to go back in next week when 23 you realise you've made those error notices 24 incorrectly and it comes back again. So why should 25 I take it out? I'd only be robbing myself. I'm not 9 1 going to do that. So, you know, it stayed in the 2 drawer. 3 Q. Did you ever use the helpline at all? 4 A. It wasn't called the helpline at our office. It was 5 called the "hell line", not the helpline. Quite 6 regularly. Because we had a lot of freezing of the 7 computers and they would -- we'd ring up and they'd 8 say turn it off, reboot it. We'd get one screen go 9 down and then we'd get that back up and running and 10 then one of the others would go down and back up and 11 running. After asking for details of the Post Office 12 of how many times we'd rung the office, they reckoned 13 we rang once a month. Well, that's not true. We must 14 have rung five/six times a week, sometimes a day if it 15 was a particularly bad day where they kept freezing. 16 Q. Do you remember the audit that took place before you 17 were suspended? 18 A. You'll have to remind me which one that was. I'm 19 sorry. 20 Q. This is the final one where I think you say in your 21 statement the shortfall allegedly found was around 22 26,000. 23 A. Yes. They came -- that was some stamps. I had 700 24 books of 100 stamps show up on my screen that 25 shouldn't have been there, and it's not as if we'd 10 1 pressed a double button to say that's how many should 2 be in there. We'd never actually had that many 3 delivered into the unit so I thought, well, they're 4 not supposed to be there. Perhaps one of the staff 5 have tapped something or even I may have tapped 6 something that put them there. I need to take them 7 out. As soon as I took them out that gave me a loss 8 and I thought, oh God, I've done that wrong. So 9 I went and got my Counter News went through it and 10 I did it again and it doubled it. I thought, well, if 11 I ring the helpline I'm going to be -- I haven't got 12 this sort of money. I just haven't got that sort of 13 money. So I tried again to get it back to the 70 14 stamps it should have been -- 70 books rather than 700 15 books that it should have been, and all of a sudden 16 I had a loss of £36,000, which there was no way. 17 I just didn't have that money to put in. 18 So I made the mistake of declaring that I had 19 that because I was scared of being suspended again and 20 being held responsible for that money. I thought if 21 it is something I've done wrong, then I should have an 22 error notice back and I can put it right again as soon 23 as it comes back but, of course, once you've done it 24 once, the next time you want to run a roll over, you 25 have to do it again. So I took out a loan, and maxed 11 1 out my credit cards and I managed to raise £10,000 2 which I put in. 3 And then whatever profits I could make from the 4 shop I was trying to put in as much as I could each 5 week but I just couldn't get that -- I just could not 6 get that amount down. The more I put in, it just 7 seemed to keep coming out at that amount all the time. 8 Q. Was that when the auditors then came? 9 A. That happened in the May and the auditors came in 10 I think it was -- 11 Q. I think you say in your statement December? 12 A. December I think, yes. It was December. I'd got all 13 my staff into individual units and I'd kept the loss 14 in my unit and I hadn't told anybody about it. 15 I hadn't even told my husband and that weighing on you 16 for six months is one hell of a pressure. And I let 17 them do all of the staff things and then I told them 18 that they would find a discrepancy in mine but 19 I needed to go through to the house and explain to my 20 husband first before we did what we -- they came to 21 do. 22 I went through and explained to my husband 23 because he'd had to stop work because of ill health 24 and it was not nice. As soon as I told her that it 25 would be a discrepancy, the smiles disappeared and 12 1 everything else was quite sharp and directed. When 2 I came back in, she'd already rang through to the 3 management and that to tell them that there was a -- 4 going to be a loss, and then it was -- they actually 5 made the loss up to 28 -- it was something like 6 £28,000 but the auditor herself had counted the £10 7 notes incorrectly and I actually said at the time 8 that's not right and they came back the next day and 9 recounted and brought it back down to the 26,200-and 10 something. I can't remember exactly what it was. 11 Q. How did you feel that day? 12 A. Gutted, absolutely gutted, because I knew that a job 13 that I loved was gone. I knew it was gone. I hadn't 14 signed any of the cash accounts since it had happened 15 because I didn't -- I knew that they were incorrect 16 and there was the one auditor on one side and the one 17 on the other side and they stood over me until 18 I signed them and I didn't know at the time that 19 I could sign them, that they were signed under duress. 20 So as soon as I signed those that was me done. 21 Q. When were you suspended? 22 A. I was suspended that day. 23 Q. I think you say in your statement you were terminated, 24 your contract was terminated on 2 January 2009; is 25 that about right? 13 1 A. Yes, that's about right, yes. 2 Q. You were then interviewed by the Post Office later in 3 January 2009; is that right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Can you tell us a bit about that interview. 6 A. I got an awful cold. I'd rung the Federation to see 7 if they could -- that's Federation of 8 Subpostmasters -- to see if they could help me and the 9 lady on the other end of the phone said that as I'd 10 been suspended I was no longer a subpostmaster 11 therefore they could do nothing for me. 12 So I rang the local area rep, which was Mark 13 Baker, and he's now with the CWU, and asked him if he 14 could come as another subpostmaster because they told 15 me I couldn't take a solicitor. I could take somebody 16 that worked for the Post Office. I couldn't take 17 a family friend; I couldn't take a solicitor. It had 18 to be one of those two options. So Mark came with me 19 and he was told right at the beginning of the -- 20 before they cautioned me and everything, that he 21 wasn't allowed to say anything. 22 Q. Who was there from the Post Office? 23 A. Two investigators. All the way through I was telling 24 them exactly what had happened and how it had happened 25 and they kept telling me that can't happen, nobody 14 1 else has had any of these problems, it can't happen. 2 And I said, "Well, it did happen. I can't make 3 a story up to say something that fits in with you. 4 That is what happened". And when I got my statement 5 through in the mediation from Second Sight, when my -- 6 they'd written it out, none of that was in that 7 statement. I thought, well, even that, they've not 8 put in what was actually said. A lot of it was 9 correct but a lot of it had been missed out. 10 They went through two tapes while I was there 11 and, you know, it's like three pages of -- three pages 12 of written statement, so I don't know -- I never, ever 13 got a tape or anything so I don't know what happened 14 to that. 15 Q. How did you feel after that interview? 16 A. Well, to be honest, I was a little bit relieved 17 because at the end of it they said to me they were 18 going to go away and investigate it and I thought, 19 well, great, at least they're listening. They asked 20 for all my bank details which I gave them with no 21 problem because I'd got nothing to hide. They asked 22 me what sort of car I was driving. I think they were 23 a bit disappointed when I told them a 25-year old 24 Volvo. You know. Where had I been on holiday. 25 I took one holiday from the Post Office where I was 15 1 relieved by somebody else and £600 went missing and 2 I never had another holiday from the Post Office at 3 all because I couldn't afford to have a holiday and 4 then have money go missing that I would have to make 5 up. 6 But they said they were going to investigate it, 7 and then I waited and I waited and I waited and then 8 the next thing I had was a special delivery envelope, 9 one for me and one for my husband, because both our 10 names were on the Post Office property, and we'd 11 bought a buy to let which my son was making good so 12 that we could let that out and that was going to be my 13 pension because I'd not got a pension then. 14 I didn't hear anything back. You know, they 15 never said, "Right, we've investigated, we found this, 16 we found that". I absolutely heard nothing from them 17 at all. 18 Q. At that time in your life, I think you say in your 19 statement that after your contract was terminated you 20 worked for St John's Ambulance; is that right? 21 A. Yes. I was a volunteer for St John's Ambulance for 22 probably four years. During my time at the 23 Post Office. I used to help out at a lot of events 24 and I worked my way up so that I could crew an 25 ambulance and actually work for them, for the NHS, at 16 1 weekends because it was another thing that I loved to 2 do. 3 As soon as I was convicted I got a recorded 4 letter from them to say I could no longer be a member 5 because it was bringing them into disrepute and would 6 I desist from contacting any of the members. 7 Q. How did that feel? 8 A. Blooming awful because I'd raised an awful lot of 9 money for them. 10 Q. You have mentioned your conviction. I think you say 11 in your statement you received a summons to the 12 Magistrates' Court for theft; is that right? 13 A. That's correct, yes. 14 Q. What did you plead? 15 A. Right through Magistrates, right through up until the 16 day of the court case I pleaded not guilty. I was 17 called to Cirencester court and my barrister said, 18 "You'll be okay. There's no cells there. They've 19 obviously decided you are not going to prison because 20 you're going there". 21 So I went up to Cirencester court, stood outside 22 with my -- some of my family and some of my customers 23 and lots of other people and policemen waiting to go 24 in and it didn't open. I rang my barrister and she 25 said, "Where are you?" I said, "I'm at Cirencester", 17 1 and she said, "Oh no, it's been changed to Crown 2 Court. You have got 25 minutes to get here or you'll 3 be held in contempt". 4 Nobody had let me know that it was supposed to 5 be at Gloucester. I got the letter the day after the 6 case that it had been changed to Gloucester, so it was 7 almost like an American movie with Burt Reynolds. We 8 were in a convoy down from Cirencester into 9 Cheltenham -- into Gloucester and then when I got 10 there the TV cameras and everything were there and 11 I was just -- I was zombied really. 12 I got my keys, I got the car keys, I gave those 13 to my Dad because I didn't know whether I'd be coming 14 and driving home or anything like that. And then when 15 I got in, my barrister was talking to the Post Office 16 barristers who were being quite disparaging against me 17 not turning up, and then she took me into a room and 18 said, "Look, they've offered to drop the theft charge 19 if you'll plead guilty to the false accounting charge. 20 If you don't, you are going to go to prison and you 21 will go to prison for about three years". 22 My husband was ill and I knew if I went into 23 prison I wouldn't come out. I knew I wouldn't come 24 out. 25 So I pled guilty and then the judge, as soon as 18 1 I stood up, because he actually passed sentence that 2 day, as soon as I stood up he said, "You're not 3 going -- this is not going to be a custodial sentence. 4 I can see it's not" -- he actually said, "I can see 5 it's not a case of larceny. It's a case of 6 not" -- I can't remember the actual word but something 7 like obnoxious contract and he sentenced me to 8 150 hours of community service, £1,500 costs and all 9 I heard was my Mum and Dad and my son sobbing from the 10 gallery above. And I know I went and saw a probation 11 officer and everything to get everything set up but 12 I can't remember doing that. 13 Q. You say in your statement your conviction was 14 overturned last year. 15 A. It was. 16 Q. I'm now going to ask some questions about the impact 17 that all of this has had on you. You mentioned 18 earlier what happened to your job at St John's 19 Ambulance. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. I think this also had a financial impact on you, 22 didn't it, as well? 23 A. I've been luckier than most. I've been able to work 24 since my conviction. I worked for a private 25 ambulance -- well, I worked for a private ambulance 19 1 unit that worked for NHS in between the time that 2 I was suspended and convicted but as soon as I was 3 convicted obviously they won't allow you to do that 4 with a conviction, so I had to stop that. 5 Then a colleague of mine was opening a business 6 and asked me to come and work with him because he'd 7 worked with me on the ambulances, and I worked with 8 him for about six months. And then I went to get 9 a cleaning job because I just couldn't concentrate on 10 anything, I couldn't ... I just couldn't get my head 11 round doing anything with any responsibility. 12 I didn't want to do anything that handled money 13 anymore. I didn't want to even go there. And then 14 I went on to the dole for three weeks and then I got 15 a job as a cleaner because my husband was no longer 16 earning then so I was the only person bringing any 17 money into the house, and I got a job as a cleaner and 18 there was an accident on the site and a person was 19 injured and I assisted with him and then the 20 management of that company asked me to teach first aid 21 for them. So I started doing that, and then I went 22 and got a teaching qualification and I went and got my 23 NEBOSH and the last ten years I have worked as 24 a health and safety consult within aerospace. 25 So I've been one of the lucky ones in that 20 1 respect that I've been able to work and I've had some 2 money coming in. So I've managed to pay off any debt 3 that we were in and managed to pay off the mortgage 4 because I wanted every penny to go off the mortgage so 5 that we knew that we had a roof over our head. 6 I've lost my thread now, sorry. 7 Q. That's okay. I'm now going to ask you some questions 8 about your health. What impact has all of this on 9 your mental health? 10 A. Huge, huge. I went to the doctor's. He gave me some 11 medication but it didn't stop me feeling as though I'd 12 let my family down and ... I got some tablets and 13 a bottle of water and I went up on to Cleeve Hill, 14 that's my thinking place, and I was going to take 15 them, and as soon as I got up there, out of the blue, 16 Jo Hamilton rang me and was speaking to me and saying, 17 "You know, you're not on your own. There's lots of 18 us", and that was the first time I knew that I wasn't 19 the only one that it had happened to because I didn't 20 realise there was anybody out there, anybody else out 21 there that had gone through this. I had no idea. 22 And then I realised I was back at the car. 23 I hadn't taken anything and I hadn't drank anything. 24 I thought, well, if I'm not on my own, I can do this. 25 And the first meeting that I went to, when I got 21 1 there, there was about 60 people in the room and 2 Alan Bates -- thank God for Alan Bates, he's an 3 incredible man -- and Kay, Kay Burnell, she's -- they 4 are both -- we owe them so much to get us to where we 5 are now, and they asked in the room how many people 6 had been told they were the only one and all the hands 7 went up, and I just couldn't believe that they had 8 tried to separate us so much so that we wouldn't 9 understand that this was right the way through all of 10 the Post Office. 11 It's affected my health in as much that I now 12 have fibromyalgia, which means I've got constant pain. 13 I walk with a stick because when my one leg cramps 14 I end up flat on my face and that's to do with the 15 fibromyalgia as well, and I've got that, according to 16 my consultant, because of not being able to sleep. 17 Again, that's because of the Post Office. 18 Q. When you say you weren't able to sleep, what do you 19 mean by that? 20 A. Just lying looking at the -- before I knew there was 21 anybody else, I'd just keep going over and over and 22 over it in my head, to see whether, you know, if 23 I could think why it had happened and where it had 24 happened and then I'd wake up and I'd find myself 25 going through drawers to see if I'd put money in 22 1 there. I knew I hadn't taken it but I was looking 2 everywhere for it and I -- you know, I was lucky if 3 I got a couple of hours sleep a night. And then it 4 was back out on an ambulance or whatever again with 5 Wendy being the smiley person and looking after 6 everybody else, and that took a toll because I boxed 7 it off and tried to deal with it inside and I think my 8 body just went no, not having that. 9 So it means now that I've had to give up work 10 because I can't concentrate and health and safety is 11 obviously quite an important thing that you have to 12 get right and I didn't want to make a mistake for 13 anybody and get anything wrong, so I've given up work. 14 Q. What about the impact on your family? 15 A. Huge. My Mum and Dad were absolutely devastated for 16 me. I was very lucky with all of my family. Every 17 single one of my family went, "Yeah, right, like you'd 18 take anything", because they know that that's not part 19 of the way we've been brought up and the way our 20 family -- well, my Dad was, "You don't spit, you don't 21 tell lies, and you don't steal anything". 22 That was the way we were brought up and that's 23 the way we've always been and for people to think 24 I was dishonest, for me and my family, was horrendous. 25 I mean, it's had an impact on my husband's health. 23 1 He's definitely the worse for it. Unfortunately, my 2 father's passed away now and he passed away before my 3 trial was thing and I lost my son in that period as 4 well, one of my sons. 5 So it's -- I only found out four months ago that 6 my son started a job at a large factory and the day he 7 got there somebody asked him where he was from and he 8 said, "Oh, Hatherley", and gave the address of the 9 Post Office as to where he lived and I won't use the 10 exact expletives that were used but they called me 11 a lot of names where he felt that he had to -- had to 12 defend me. And his life in that job was made so 13 uncomfortable that that and losing his brother he had 14 a major breakdown. 15 Q. How does it make you feel knowing that he went through 16 that? 17 A. Horrendous because I didn't realise he was being 18 bullied at work like that. I just didn't know and he 19 didn't feel that he could tell me until just before 20 Christmas. 21 Q. I think you mention in your statement that your story 22 was covered in the local press; is that right? 23 A. The day after the court case we had to go and get some 24 shopping and I walked into Tesco's and where they 25 normally have all the different papers on the wall 24 1 instead of that, they put the local Echo all over the 2 wall with my face on it saying, "Local subpostmistress 3 escapes jail", and my husband looked at it and he 4 said, "Do you want to go?" And I said, "No, it will 5 be tomorrow's chip paper. I'm going to just carry 6 on". And I've tried very hard to keep my head up. 7 Every job I've gone for, anybody that I've come 8 in contact where I've had to have some sort of, you 9 know, if I've gone in to train in a different company 10 or anything like that, I've always made sure that 11 management knew exactly what had happened to me and 12 then asked them, "Do you still want me to work for 13 you", because I didn't want -- you know, I've always 14 been upfront and said, like, "This is what's happened 15 to me". I did not steal any money and I've always 16 made that -- you know, so I've always done that. 17 But it's affected us all in horrible ways, you 18 know. 19 Q. How did the local community treat you? 20 A. Mostly very, very supportive. I didn't know at the 21 time but a lot of people had written letters via 22 a councillor, a local councillor, to the court on my 23 behalf, which was very humbling. To know that that 24 many people supported me was lovely. 25 I did have one man spit at me in the street and 25 1 I did get spat on when I was doing the community 2 service as well. We were working on the canals and as 3 people walked over the bridge over the canal they 4 would see who they could hit as we were going along 5 there. But some of the community service I actually 6 enjoyed but I didn't quite enjoy the canal bit. 7 Q. What would you like from the Post Office now? 8 A. I've got a list. 9 My manager at the time wrote a letter to the 10 Post Office supporting me. Now, his job disappeared 11 for him two weeks later. Now, I don't know whether he 12 lost his job because he wrote that or whether there 13 was any other reason, but he was doing really well up 14 until he tried to support me. 15 The thing that really -- you know, from the 16 people on the "hell line" that took all the calls from 17 people telling them that they were short, they were 18 short, they were short, why didn't their moral 19 compasses get them to move it up to the management 20 there? And if they did, why didn't that management 21 then move it further up the company? So we've got 22 right from people answering calls on the "hell line" 23 right through their management, right through the 24 management that came out to visit Post Offices, up to 25 the Board. 26 1 Now, they're either completely negligent in 2 their jobs and in that case they should have all their 3 bonuses and everything taken off them because they 4 were totally negligent in what they were doing and 5 they didn't know what was going on in the Post Office, 6 and if they did know, they were complicit. And if 7 they were complicit, I really want them to be charged, 8 Sir Wyn, because it's wrong. It is so wrong to do 9 what they did to us. 10 And if those people did hand those things up the 11 line but were told not to do it and then were bullied 12 into keeping quiet, we need to know that as well. We 13 need to know why they did that. 14 That goes through to the Government as well. 15 The Civil Service that worked between BEIS and the 16 Post Office itself, they had people on the board of 17 the Post Office. If they knew, why didn't they say 18 something? And if they knew, the postal ministers 19 must have known through all of this time. 20 Now, either they were completely hoodwinked and 21 they were negligent or, again, they were complicit in 22 what was going on and that has to stop and it has -- 23 you can't leave the same people on the board and 24 expect that Post Office to run correctly. It's an 25 inbred way that they run everything now. 27 1 The last thing I'd like to say is I'm one of the 2 lucky ones. I know after all of that you wouldn't 3 think so but I was one of the lucky ones. I was 4 convicted which means I will at some point get some 5 compensation. There are other people out there that 6 have lost everything. Now, they may not have gone 7 before a court and been found guilty; they have still 8 lost their homes, they've still lost their businesses, 9 they've still lost their families, they are still in 10 debt, they're still bankrupt. They need help from the 11 GLO to get what they deserve and even if it means 12 giving them back what was taken in costs to bring this 13 to public notice with the GLO they need to have that 14 returned to them. 15 To be honest that isn't even going to cover 16 their losses. That needs to be looked into properly. 17 Like I say, I'll be all right because I will get 18 compensation because I was convicted but please, 19 please, help those ones that weren't convicted and 20 still lost everything. 21 That's all I want to say. 22 Q. Is there anything else you want to say to the Chair? 23 A. No. 24 MS KENNEDY: I'm just going to turn to the Chair to ask if 25 he has any questions for you. 28 1 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: No, I don't have any questions but my 2 heart-felt thanks to you for coming to give evidence 3 today. 4 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 5 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Since we are moving, I would say, 6 slightly quicker than we might have -- perhaps we will 7 have a five-minute break just to let everything settle 8 down and then we can start again. 9 (11.48 am) 10 (A short break) 11 (11.57 am) 12 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, Ms Kennedy. 13 MS KENNEDY: Our next witness is Mr Timothy Brentnall. 14 TIMOTHY BRENTNALL (affirmed) 15 Questioned by MS KENNEDY 16 Q. As you know, my name's Ruth Kennedy and I ask 17 questions on behalf of the Inquiry. 18 Could you confirm your name please? 19 A. Timothy St John Brentnall. 20 Q. I think you should have a copy of your witness 21 statement there? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. I think it should be dated 11 January 2022? 24 A. It is. 25 Q. And it's 11 pages, and if you look at the last page, 29 1 page 11, is that your signature? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Have you read through this statement recently? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is it true to the best of your knowledge and belief? 6 A. Apart from the one point of point 6, looking back at 7 it, it should have been 2006, not 2005. 8 Q. In late 2006? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Other than that correction, it is true to the -- 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. I'm going to start by asking a few introductory 13 questions about you. 14 How old are you now? 15 A. 40. 16 Q. Where did you grow up? 17 A. I grew up in the village where this Post Office was, 18 in Roch, in Pembrokeshire. 19 Q. How many children do you have? 20 A. One. 21 Q. What kind of jobs did you have before you took over 22 a post office? 23 A. I had had several local jobs from a grounds keeper, 24 I worked in the ITVD digital call centre and following 25 the collapse of that company, I went on to work for 30 1 security companies, firstly Reliance Security and then 2 Group 4 Security. 3 Q. Why did you want to work in a post office? 4 A. I didn't particularly have an aspiration to work in 5 a post office, but being from the westest of Wales 6 work was quite -- or sort of permanent work was quite 7 hard to come by and I found the work with Group 4 was 8 moving me further and further away from home, so when 9 the opportunity came to purchase the shop and the 10 Post Office in the village that I'd grown up in, I got 11 together with my parents and we decided that we would 12 buy it and it would make a lifelong career for me at 13 home in Pembrokeshire. 14 Q. I think you mention in your statement that it was 15 a shop, a post office, and a fish and chip shop? 16 A. Initially, yes. 17 Q. And I think you say in your statement that you 18 initially had a temporary subpostmaster with you; is 19 that right? 20 A. Yes, when we bought the business it was -- the 21 outgoing owner, subpostmaster, left in a personal 22 hurry. So we bought the premises from him but 23 I wasn't approved to run the Post Office by the 24 Post Office for some four or five months after we 25 bought it, so there was a temporary subpostmistress 31 1 who ran it for those initial six months. 2 Q. I think you say in your statement you took over the 3 role of subpostmaster in late 2005. Is that correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What training did you receive? 6 A. I had four days on-site training. 7 Q. And did you have training with the temporary 8 subpostmistress as well when -- 9 A. No, just I had a gentleman come from Post Office on 10 the Monday and Tuesday of my first week. He had to go 11 somewhere else for the Wednesday and then he was with 12 me again for the Thursday and Friday. 13 Q. How did you find that training? What did you think of 14 it? 15 A. It was more training on sales and upselling 16 Post Office products rather than actually running the 17 office. He sort of -- the gentleman that trained me 18 didn't know how to account for the cash machine or the 19 lottery that we had on site and just said, "Oh, you'll 20 just have to refer to your operations manuals and 21 follow the instructions in those". 22 Q. How did you find using Horizon? 23 A. I never really fully understood how it worked but the 24 trainer said to me, "as long as you're" -- he said, 25 "If you're honest with it there will -- you'll never 32 1 balance to zero so they'll either be a plus or a minus 2 figure, so you either take that out and keep it in 3 a separate pot or put it back in and keep it in 4 a separate pot, but as long as you are honest then you 5 won't have any problems". 6 So I didn't really -- knowing that I was honest, 7 I didn't really worry about how I was using it because 8 I didn't understand what it was actually doing when 9 you were balancing was producing accounts. 10 Q. So when did you start to notice shortfalls and 11 discrepancies? 12 A. I initially had a problem in late 2006, which is when 13 I then had my first audit and there was a shortfall of 14 around £6,000, which, as far as we could tell, had 15 come from transaction corrections to do with the 16 lottery that wasn't being accounted for properly but 17 the auditor explained that it was in my contract that 18 I was to be held or was responsible for these, so 19 I had to pay that £6,000 back into the Post Office. 20 Q. Did you ever use the helpline? 21 A. I did initially but I sort of despaired with it 22 because you'd ring with a problem on Tuesday and you'd 23 be told to follow these certain sequence of button 24 presses to correct it, and sometimes it would correct 25 it and sometimes it seemed to make the problem double, 33 1 and then you would ring the next day and say, "Now, 2 this problem seems to have doubled", and the next 3 person that you spoke to would say, "Oh, I don't 4 understand why you've been told to do that. That's 5 completely wrong. You need to" -- this is every time 6 you spoke to somebody different they gave you 7 a different way of addressing the problem and most of 8 the time it seemed to make this worse. 9 Q. How did you feel about that? 10 A. Well, I -- because I knew I wasn't being dishonest it 11 didn't really concern me because I thought, well, 12 I know I'm not doing anything wrong, I'm not stealing 13 and eventually it will sort itself out. 14 Q. In your statement you mention a big alleged shortfall 15 or discrepancy in 2008 of around £22,500. 16 A. Yes, that arrived as what they call transaction 17 correction one morning which you had to accept before 18 you could open, which is when -- that's what threw me 19 into a panic because I knew from my experience with 20 the previous audit that I could be held responsible 21 for that money. I didn't understand where it had come 22 from or what it meant, so I just accepted it and 23 decided that if I contacted the Post Office they could 24 well ask for that full amount immediately, which 25 I knew I wouldn't be able to pay, so I tried to -- 34 1 I declared -- falsely declared that I held the cash 2 and tried to pay the money back with the view that 3 once I'd corrected that shortfall I could then go and 4 say, "There's been this problem and can we find out do 5 I owe you the money or do you owe me the money back? 6 Whose problem is it?" 7 Q. How much money did you pay back in in respect of that 8 alleged shortfall? 9 A. I'd paid -- I got it down to about £16,000 shortfall 10 before the next audit came. 11 Q. And the next audit you say in your statement was in 12 2009; is that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. I think you say that by that stage having paid in the 15 alleged shortfall was about £16,500. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How many auditors came to that audit? 18 A. Two. 19 Q. And what did you say to them when they arrived? 20 A. Well, it was the same lady that had been my manager, 21 Gaynor, originally, and the lady that had done the 22 first audit. So they were friendly. We would have 23 had a cup of tea and a chat and she went through some 24 of her initial procedures, and then when she came to 25 count I took her into the back office and said, 35 1 "Before you do the full audit, I need to tell you what 2 I've been doing because you're going to discover 3 a shortfall". 4 At that point I was under the impression that 5 they would have been there to help me. 6 Q. Did they help you? 7 A. No. 8 Q. What happened after you told them about that 9 shortfall? 10 A. Their attitudes completely changed. They 11 immediately -- they went outside and called through to 12 their bosses at the Post Office. Before they 13 completed the audit or counted anything further they 14 came back in and told me I was going to be suspended 15 while they found out exactly how much money was 16 missing, in their words. 17 Q. What happened then? I think you mention in your 18 statement an investigation team arrived. 19 A. No, they -- I didn't see an investigation team for 20 about a week. They completed the audit. Before they 21 left, Gaynor said to me that I was going to be 22 contacted by both the investigation team and the 23 Post Office HR manager and she sort of said to me off 24 record, "Don't tell them what you've told me, that you 25 don't understand what's happening because they'll 36 1 accuse you of stealing it. Make sure that when you're 2 interviewed you can provide a reason to where this 3 money's gone and when you go for an interview with 4 your HR manager, the best thing you can do is go with 5 a cheque to pay this money back so that they don't 6 accuse you of theft". 7 Q. How did you feel when that was said to you? 8 A. I -- totally lost in the moment because I knew 9 I hadn't stolen -- there was no evidence that I'd 10 stolen anything. I certainly wasn't living, you know, 11 the high life from ill gotten gains. But I was 12 totally panicked in the fact that I was possibly going 13 to be accused of stealing this money. 14 Q. Turning then to when the investigation team come 15 a week afterwards, what happened then? 16 A. Well, I had a horrible experience with the 17 investigating team. Initially, I missed a phone call 18 from an unknown number. When I rang the number back 19 the investigator introduced himself as a man called 20 Mike Wilcox and told me that he's not the kind of 21 person that you miss a phone call from. I said, 22 "Well, you know, I don't know your number. I haven't 23 intentionally avoided you", but that set out his 24 attitude from the beginning. 25 He called me in. He explained that he needed to 37 1 interview me but said, "We're trying to get to the 2 bottom of it and understand what's going on. It's 3 just an internal procedure. We need to record it, so 4 we'll have to do it at your local police station but 5 because it's an internal procedure you don't need any 6 legal representation", so I went without a solicitor. 7 Q. Who was there when you arrived? 8 A. Mike Wilcox and a lady accompanying him but I can't 9 remember her name. 10 Q. What happened at that interview? 11 A. He started off -- they started off on the tack of 12 accusing me of taking the money, saying, "Well, how do 13 you afford to have a car", and when I explained to him 14 the value of the car that I had they said, "Okay, 15 well, clearly you haven't spent it on a car". 16 I hadn't taken any holidays or things like that and 17 I kept repeating to him saying, "I can give you my 18 bank statements. I can give you access to anything to 19 show you that I haven't taken this money", which they 20 seemed to me at the time of the interview to accept. 21 And then the second part of it seemed to be 22 dealing with the balancing procedures and why I had 23 declared on Horizon that I held this cash and I tried 24 to explain the position that I laid out earlier, that 25 I was trying to repay it to avoid having the suspicion 38 1 of that huge amount of theft because of what had 2 happened with the previous audit. 3 Q. I think you say in your statement you paid the 4 Post Office for the alleged shortfall? 5 A. Yes, at my interview with my HR manager which either 6 happened just before or just after the investigation 7 team, I did go with, thankfully, money that I could 8 raise, mostly from my parents' savings, to pay them 9 that to avoid the theft charge. 10 Q. I think you say in your statement your contract was 11 terminated with the Post Office on 4 December 2009; is 12 that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You then appealed that termination. 15 A. Yes, because -- they terminated my contract saying 16 that I'd been dishonest and I appealed it on the 17 grounds that I hadn't wanted to be dishonest. It felt 18 like I'd been forced into that position. I wanted to 19 have proper training on it and I wanted to continue to 20 run the Post Office. It was not just an integral part 21 of our business providing footfall to the shop but it 22 was the Post Office in the village that I grew up in 23 and I knew personally most of the customers. That's 24 one of the pleasures that I drew from it was serving 25 the local community and I wanted to be able to 39 1 continue to do that. 2 Q. Who heard your appeal? 3 A. I can't pronounce her surname very well but it's the 4 lady that has since been in the -- Angela van den 5 Bogerd. 6 Q. How was that appeal hearing? What was it like? 7 A. Totally emotionless. She listened to the reasons as 8 I just said that I wanted to continue and I felt that 9 I hadn't done anything dishonest. She gave me no 10 indication on the day of how it had gone and within 11 a week I just received a letter saying that it had 12 been denied. 13 Q. What were you then charged with? 14 A. Charged with false accounting. That's another point 15 going back to the investigator. When I was charged 16 with false accounting, my mother who was in a previous 17 life a maths teacher said, "Well, we'll sit down and 18 we'll go through all the paperwork that we have from 19 the Post Office and we'll try and understand if 20 they've gone wrong or if you've gone wrong or what's 21 actually happened", but neither of us -- the 22 documentation that we had, we couldn't, when I was 23 a postmaster you couldn't draw annoying from Horizon 24 to follow what had happened and the stuff that I had 25 from them at interview didn't make any sense. 40 1 So we together rang Mr Wilcox to say, "Do we 2 have to now engage a solicitor to get disclosure from 3 the Post Office about these amounts of money or is 4 there something further that you can provide to us" 5 and he said to us, "Look, you've already paid back 6 £22,500 at that office. I could make a case for 7 a further £135,000 worth of shortfalls. If you don't 8 stop digging, I'll come after you for the lot". 9 Q. I think you say in your statement that your case for 10 fraudulent accounting was transferred to the Crown 11 Court. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What advice did you receive from your barrister about 14 what you should plead? 15 A. Well, still at that point I was determined that I was 16 going to plead not guilty but the barrister explained 17 to me that the actions that I'd taken with the monthly 18 balances and signing them could provide evidence that 19 there was false accounting and, regardless of the 20 intent or not, if I stood in front of a Crown Court 21 with a jury and pled not guilty that the high 22 likelihood is that a jury would believe the 23 Post Office over me, so he convinced me to plead 24 guilty to the false accounting charges because he said 25 if I pled not guilty and was found guilty then I would 41 1 very much likely receive a custodial sentence and my 2 best option was to plead guilty and hopefully have a 3 suspended sentence, which is what happened. 4 Q. How did it feel receiving that advice? 5 A. Deflating, because if a barrister either -- I didn't 6 know at the time whether he believed me or not or 7 whether what he said was right, that he couldn't 8 actually provide any evidence to fight it, but knowing 9 in myself that I hadn't stolen anything or done 10 anything maliciously, that I was going to end up 11 having to plead guilty to it because I didn't want to 12 go to prison. 13 Q. You mentioned the sentence you received. What was 14 that suspended sentence; do you remember? 15 A. It was -- I think it was a number of months but 16 suspended for 18 months. 17 Q. And you did some community service? 18 A. 200 or 250 hours. 19 Q. Your conviction was overturned last year; is that 20 right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. I'm now going to ask you some questions about the 23 impact that all of this has had on you. You have 24 already told us about what you paid into the 25 Post Office in respect of the alleged shortfalls. 42 1 What other financial consequences has this had 2 for you? 3 A. Well, huge. When we took over the village shop it was 4 a nice little business. In the five years prior to 5 these problems, I was there six days a week minimum 6 with the Post Office and probably there on the seventh 7 day as well. I diversified the shop into several 8 different sales areas as well and we built the 9 turnover, yearly turnover, up to nearly 10 £400,000/£450,000 a year. But following my conviction 11 I not only lost the Post Office wage but also lost any 12 sort of drive or want to be involved with the business 13 and that turnover's now dwindled to less than £100,000 14 a year. 15 Q. How are you now financially? 16 A. Stuck. You know, we bought the business, we maintain 17 and still have the shop. There is a different -- we 18 had to fight to keep the Post Office counter in the 19 shop because without it -- it drew in footfall from 20 a huge rural area and without it we felt that the shop 21 wouldn't continue at all. So we allowed the 22 Post Office, after I was convicted, to have another 23 temporary subpostmistress come in and run it and then 24 when the next subpostmaster or subpostmistress took it 25 on they reduced its hours hugely, which had a knock-on 43 1 effect on our trade in the shop as well. 2 But we've been stuck there now with a business 3 that is only just washing its face as the saying goes, 4 unable to sell it or move on because it's not an 5 attractive proposition to anybody else now. 6 Q. I think you also mention in your statements that you 7 had to sell a car; is that right? 8 A. Oh yes, I had to sell. Initially my Mum and Dad paid 9 back -- well, not paid back, paid all of the money 10 that Post Office were asking for, which wasn't in any 11 way their fault at all, so I had to sell everything 12 that I didn't need to try and pay them back. 13 Q. And turning then to your family, what was the impact 14 of all of this on your relationship with your parents? 15 A. Yes, they paid the money back and they obviously 16 believed me when I said that I hadn't taken any money 17 but it did then put a huge strain on the relationship 18 because I'd cost -- could have, in their opinion, 19 could have cost them their savings, cost us all our 20 future prospects by getting involved with this mess. 21 Q. What about its impact on other relationships within 22 your family? 23 A. Yes. It strained every relationship. I mean, my 24 sister was also running a hotel locally and once 25 people found out this had happened to me they sort of 44 1 tarred her with the same brush that she might be 2 untrustworthy and, you know, wasn't to be trusted. 3 The stress and strain of the whole situation, I was 4 married at the time and that marriage ended shortly 5 afterwards because, again, it caused trust issues but 6 also obviously the amount of pressure and stress I was 7 under it changed me as a person as well. 8 Q. What impact did all of this have on your mental 9 health? 10 A. Well, if you'd asked -- I've said this several 11 times -- if you'd asked me five years ago, if anyone 12 had asked me, I would have said I dealt with it 13 brilliantly, but when I had the news come through last 14 year that my appeal wasn't going to be contested, 15 I suddenly had this huge outpouring of every emotion 16 that you can imagine, and then almost slept for two or 17 three days. 18 Following that, you realise, looking back, how 19 different -- you know, you don't realise sometimes how 20 bad you are until you start to get better and you 21 realise that maybe two hours sleep a night isn't the 22 normal way that you should be living and the stress 23 and stuff that you're under. 24 Q. I think you mention in your statement a charity that 25 you started to volunteer with. 45 1 A. Yes. I was -- that started with my community service 2 that was spent at the local Mind mental health charity 3 and the first day that I was there the man that was 4 supervising me asked me what had happened and he 5 believed me. 6 I threw myself into that community service and 7 got a great deal of reward from helping people. It 8 initially started just sort of sweeping the centre and 9 making cups of tea and helping with the cooking and 10 things for people, but following my community service, 11 I continued to volunteer there and they realised and 12 I realised that I was quite good in that kind of field 13 and eventually they offered me a part-time job and 14 I led therapy groups and things, things along those 15 sort of lines. 16 Q. Why do you think volunteering for a charity like that 17 was so important to you? 18 A. It gave me a sense of purpose again and the purpose 19 that I'd lost in the community at the Post Office 20 because it wasn't just serving people stamps or 21 sending parcels or fetching them their pensions, it 22 was a real sort of central hub of the community and 23 people would come, yes, to use the Post Office but 24 they'd stay for a cup of tea and we'd talk through 25 people's problems and it was a real sense of helping 46 1 people. 2 Q. How do you feel about yourself now? 3 A. I don't know. It's been a long time since it happened 4 and I don't think -- I can't see how I can ever get 5 back to that excited young man that I was. 6 Q. I think you mention in your statement as well that you 7 lost friends over this; is that right? 8 A. Yes. It's a very rural community where I live. I was 9 fortunate that when I was prosecuted and went to court 10 that -- I don't know why but it wasn't reported in our 11 local press, but obviously people in the village and 12 the community, you are there in the Post Office, in 13 the centre of the community one day and the next day 14 you've just gone. So people were talking -- were 15 trying to find out what had all happened and things 16 had gone on and obviously the rumours went round. But 17 I'd visit the local pub and you'd hear, "There's the 18 fraudster", or, "There's the man that stole all the 19 old people's pensions", or things like that. So I 20 just stopped going out, stopped sort of socialising. 21 Q. How did that make you feel to hear people say things 22 like that about you? 23 A. It was horrible but initially I tried to challenge 24 some people on it and put my side of the story but 25 people would always come back with, "Well, you pled 47 1 guilty. If I was accused of something like that", 2 they'd say, "then there's no way that I'd plead guilty 3 to something I hadn't done". They couldn't understand 4 that that was just advice that I followed to avoid 5 having to go to prison. It's horrible. 6 Q. What would you like from the Post Office now? 7 A. I've written a little bit. 8 I know this Inquiry is called the Post Office 9 Horizon IT Inquiry and I've watched at home most of 10 the hearings in London. Alongside that, I've also 11 followed the BEIS Select Committee meetings and last 12 week or the week before when there were questions 13 asked of Paul Scully in the House of Commons. During 14 all of those meetings and sessions Horizon is 15 mentioned all the time as being the main problem. 16 It's fair to say that it's the root cause and 17 that problems started with Horizon, but we're here 18 discussing the human impact and I think the Inquiry 19 should also be looking at the human cause of these 20 problems. 21 Myself, as every other subpostmaster you have 22 heard from and probably will hear from, had problems 23 that started with Horizon but those problems did not 24 finish with Horizon. Horizon merely provided the data 25 that showed a shortfall but it was people who chose to 48 1 believe that data over myself or hundreds of other 2 subpostmasters. 3 It wasn't Horizon that prosecuted us. It was 4 the Post Office. It wasn't Horizon that encouraged us 5 to pay back money under threat of theft charges. That 6 was people at the Post Office. 7 It wasn't Horizon that sacked Second Sight when 8 they found uncomfortable truths in their reports in 9 2013. That was people at the Post Office. It wasn't 10 Horizon that then went on to shred documents. That 11 was people at the Post Office. 12 Horizon then did not try and outspend the Group 13 Litigation people, the 555 as we are known, in court 14 as an attempt to deny us justice. That was 15 a Post Office decision. Horizon did then not try and 16 recuse the judge of that trial. That was 17 a Post Office decision. 18 Horizon did not tell hundreds if not thousands 19 of us that we were the only people having problems. 20 That is the evilest of lies and again that was the 21 Post Office and I hope this inquiry will look very 22 closely not only at Horizon but the people. 23 Q. Is there anything else you will like to say to the 24 Chair? 25 A. No, that's it. 49 1 MS KENNEDY: Chair, do you have any questions. 2 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: No, no, thank you. Thanks very much 3 for coming. 4 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 5 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: So I think we're going to move to the 6 next phase and for those who may not know what's 7 happening, when these hearings opened in London 11 8 days ago I think, Ms Kennedy, I said amongst other 9 things that many people would not be giving evidence 10 but who had -- but those people had provided detailed 11 witness statements which were very much part of the 12 sources of evidence that I would be looking at. It's 13 right that those people's witness statements should be 14 referred to publicly so that it's known that they gave 15 those statements and so just before lunch when 16 everyone's ready now what's going to happen is that 17 summaries of some of those witness statements are 18 going to be read out so that the witness statements 19 themselves and the persons who made them are publicly 20 acknowledged as part of this Inquiry. 21 So we'll break off again for a few minutes until 22 everyone is ready for that process to begin and then 23 we'll do as much of that as people think appropriate 24 and then break for lunch. 25 (12.27 pm) 50 1 (A short break) 2 (12.41 pm) 3 MR ANTHONY GANT, summary read by MS PATRICK 4 MS PATRICK: We're first going to read the summary of the 5 evidence of Mr Anthony Gant. Mr Gant is married to 6 his current wife and they have been married for 12 7 years. His wife has a daughter and Mr Gant has three 8 children from his previous marriage. Before working 9 with the Post Office, he was a dealer on the stock 10 market having taken examinations for this role. He's 11 now a store manager for Greggs. 12 In June 2003, Mr Gant and his then wife decided 13 to move to Wales as his ex-wife was from there 14 originally. He secured the role of subpostmaster of 15 the Nantoer Post Office branch in Newton, Wales. He 16 owned the property that the Post Office was in and 17 this included a small grocery shop and a residential 18 side of the building where he and his ex-wife lived. 19 Prior to taking over as the subpostmaster 20 Mr Gant received one week's training at the 21 Post Office headquarters in Bury St Edmunds and then 22 some on-site training from the outgoing 23 subpostmistress whom he was replacing. 24 Mr Gant noticed issues with Horizon. Initially, 25 when he noticed those issues he would pay any 51 1 discrepancies out of his own money. He would pay this 2 any way he could from taking money from savings, to 3 taking money from the pub where he was the lease 4 holder, his retail shop, and from credit cards. 5 However, it got to the point where he had no more 6 money to put in. 7 He says, "This was very distressing for me". 8 Mr Gant was undertaking daily cash declarations and 9 then monthly account balances each month. During 10 these balances he would have to inflate the cash on 11 hand figure to cover the discrepancies. He did this 12 by inflating the cash declarations to reflect what he 13 saw on the daily snapshot on the system. 14 He thought by doing this he was making it look 15 normal. He would then have to declare that he had the 16 cash, even though he didn't. Mr Gant says: 17 "I knew what I was doing was wrong but I was too 18 frightened to tell anyone about it." 19 He tried calling the helpline when errors were 20 occurring but he never received any support. 21 On 19 April 2007 an audit was carried out by the 22 Post Office which resulted in a shortfall of £13,000 23 being alleged. Following the audit, Mr Gant was 24 suspended. He says this was devastating and he felt 25 sick when the auditor arrived at the branch. On 52 1 7 May 2007 he was interviewed by the Post Office 2 investigators and was very scared at this time and he 3 was not legally represented. 4 However, he had a Federation representative 5 present during that interview. Mr Gant was prosecuted 6 by the Post Office after being charged with theft. He 7 had problems sleeping as his situation was always on 8 his mind. He would wake up in the morning thinking 9 about it and go to bed thinking about it. He says it 10 was endless. 11 Upon advice from his legal representatives he 12 pleaded guilty to false accounting on the basis that 13 the charge of theft would be dropped. 14 On 26 October 2007, he was convicted of false 15 accounting at the Shrewsbury Magistrates' Court and 16 given a suspended sentence, ordered to undertake 17 100 hours of community service and had to pay costs of 18 £960 and compensation to the Post Office of £14,500. 19 Mr Gant believes that his commitment to one of his 20 children who required medical treatment for a physical 21 illness is why he avoided a prison sentence. 22 Despite earning only £1,000 a month he was 23 ordered to make payments in the sum of £500 a month to 24 the Post Office. This was he says a massive struggle 25 for him and his family and led to him missing payments 53 1 on other bills. 2 This got him into, he says, a lot of mess 3 financially and it took him a number of years to get 4 straight again. He had to return to court to reduce 5 the payments he was required to make to the 6 Post Office but in the end he paid back the full 7 £14,500. His wife was then returned -- sorry, forced 8 to return to work on a full-time basis despite having 9 a young child to care for. Mr Gant was devastated 10 when he found out that he was being convicted and he 11 recalls thinking: 12 "I don't know if I am going to walk out of here. 13 It was sickening." 14 Followed his conviction he split up with his 15 ex-wife and his leasehold over the pub that he then 16 held came to an end, meaning he had no source of 17 income. Without income, he could no longer afford to 18 pay his mortgage so the Post Office closed his 19 sub-post office and the property was repossessed by 20 the lender. He lost his stock market credentials. He 21 used to coach children's rugby and would referee 22 matches. However, following the accusation he made 23 the decision to give this up. He was unable to go 24 back because he knew he would need a clear DBS check. 25 Mr Gant's conviction was covered by both the 54 1 national and local newspapers. One article in his 2 local newspaper the Shropshire Star wrote that Mr Gant 3 took the money for his own gains and in order to live 4 a lavish lifestyle. He says now this was devastating. 5 That newspaper has since published an article about 6 Mr Gant's conviction being quashed and how wonderful 7 this is. However, the initial article about his 8 conviction still comes up above the new article in 9 search engines. Mr Gant finds this really 10 frustrating. He divorced from his ex-wife following 11 the stresses of what happened with the Post Office and 12 that had had a huge impact on the decision to divorce. 13 Mr Gant also lost most of his friends. He had 14 one close friend who stuck by him through it all, 15 however, and Mr Gant is very grateful. 16 Despite being wary of who he makes friends with, 17 Mr Gant has still not lost faith in people. He says: 18 "I think I've been helped by the fact that I've 19 been responsible for helping to raise money for the 20 Ronald McDonald children's hospital." 21 Mr Gant has raised around £8,000 for this 22 charity. However, he talks about the impact of the 23 events with the Post Office on his family. His 24 children received some backlash as people would make 25 comments in the community. His children suffered 55 1 issues at school and his younger daughter would defend 2 Mr Gant and give verbal abuse back. 3 He still gets comments and sly looks to this 4 day. It will always be with him and there will always 5 be people who say, "There is the guy who robbed the 6 Post Office". 7 When he decided to look into matters further and 8 realised there were issues with shortfalls and 9 convictions for others, and not just him, old memories 10 started to be dug up. He was hit hard by the emotions 11 he had been suppressing and suffered a mental 12 breakdown. He felt so low, he felt he wanted to end 13 his life. It was an awful experience. He feels now, 14 and wants to say to the Inquiry, that people can kick 15 him as hard as they want but he will not stay lying 16 down. 17 That ends the summary of Mr Anthony Gant's 18 evidence. 19 I'm going to move to two summaries which will be 20 read together now. Those are the summaries of the 21 evidence of Mrs Amanda Barber and Mr Norman Barber, 22 who were married, and together experienced Horizon at 23 the Thelwell Post Office. 24 MRS AMANDA BARBER, summary read by MS PATRICK 25 First, the summary of the evidence of Amanda 56 1 Barber. 2 Amanda Barber became subpostmaster of the 3 Thelwall branch in 2009 when she bought the business 4 using a Post Office loan via Barclays Bank. She 5 worked there with her husband, Norman. Prior to that. 6 Mrs Barber had her bus had purchased a previous 7 Post Office from her father in Lancaster. Her father 8 ran that one before Mrs Barber and her husband took it 9 over. They ran that Post Office for approximately 10 three years. In addition to that work, Mrs Barber and 11 her husband frequently worked for the National 12 Register. 13 Mrs Barber reported issues with Horizon to the 14 Post Office on a number of occasions. She says the 15 Post Office wouldn't listen and said that she had to 16 make good any shortfalls. An official audit was done 17 on Mrs Barber's Post Office on 21 June 2011. She was 18 present at the time. Before they had even checked the 19 balance, they had suspended Mrs Barber and claimed to 20 have found a shortfall. The auditors found a deficit 21 total of £5,631.84 at the store. 22 Mrs Barber was asked then to attend an interview 23 with Post Office officials at the Warrington Sorting 24 Office. She was charged with fraud. 25 She was told that she would likely avoid 57 1 a custodial sentence if she pled guilty. At 2 Warrington Magistrates' Court, she was persuaded to 3 plead guilty to charges of fraud in order to lessen 4 her sentence. This was on the advice of her legal 5 team, including that there were issues with the 6 evidence available. On 6 June 2012, Mrs Barber was 7 sentenced to a 12-month community order and 8 a requirement to complete 100 hours of unpaid 9 community service. She has been trying to pay back 10 the Post Office. Her conviction was quashed by the 11 Court of Appeal on 18 November 2021. 12 Mrs Barber, as a result of her conviction, 13 together with her husband, were also thereafter 14 prevented from working for the National Register which 15 had been another source of income for them both. 16 Mrs Barber became depressed and anxious and at 17 times felt suicidal. She went to her GP to ask for 18 help, as she didn't want to be here anymore. She was 19 placed on antidepressants and Mrs Barber still takes 20 these now. She says that she and her husband now live 21 in a caravan due to the lesser expense, and they have 22 done so for many years. 23 Following the conviction, Mr and Mrs Barber's 24 family stopped talking to them. Mrs Barber pleaded 25 guilty to avoid a custodial sentence as such people 58 1 saw them as guilty. They also convicted Mrs Barber's 2 husband, even though she was the postmistress and he 3 just helped out. Mrs Barber and her husband had had 4 a big role in the wider community, not only within the 5 Post Office and the newsagents, but they had helped 6 with the introduction of Post Offices in WH Smith 7 shops. Mrs Barber's daughter worked with them in the 8 newsagent section of the business. She, their 9 daughter, was deeply affected by everything that had 10 happened and they had to support her too. The 11 daughter no longer works and feels just as isolated as 12 they do. 13 MR NORMAN BARBER, summary read by MS PATRICK 14 We'll move to the summary of the evidence of 15 Mr Norman Barber. 16 Norman Barber's married to Amanda Barber, who 17 was prosecuted by the Post Office and convicted of an 18 offence in relation to alleged missing monies at 19 Thelwall Post Office. Mr Barber was not in 20 a contractual relationship with the Post Office. 21 In 2009, Mrs Barber became the subpostmaster and 22 Mr Barber would occasionally help alongside his role 23 then at Manchester Airport where he worked on the car 24 parks. They bought the Post Office with a bank loan. 25 Prior to this, Mr and Mrs Barber ran a post office in 59 1 Lancaster, which before them used to belong to 2 Mrs Barber's father. 3 Mr Barber was aware of shortfalls within the 4 system for some time but couldn't explain them and, at 5 one point, thought the staff members had been 6 dishonest. These problems were reported to the 7 Post Office but they were told to make good any 8 shortfall and problems, as such, saw Mr and Mrs Barber 9 using their own money to make up for these losses. 10 Mr Barber said that when they no longer could afford 11 to put their own money in: 12 "I used inheritance money to pay back the 13 deficits. We even took out credit cards and loans to 14 try and clear the balances." 15 On 21 June 2011, an audit was conducted at 16 Thelwall Post Office and a shortfall found. Mr Barber 17 was aware of the shortfall and he had already 18 organised somebody to buy his car the very next day to 19 try to make it up. The auditors, he says, simply 20 weren't interested and suspended Mrs Barber on the 21 spot. 22 Mr Barber says: 23 "We were suddenly treated like criminals. My 24 wife's car was searched and we were both interviewed 25 under caution. The whole experience was degrading and 60 1 frightening." 2 Later that day, Mr Barber recalls an agency 3 worker attended the Post Office after turning up in 4 a sports car. Mr Barber says that agent gloated and 5 laughed about how he had been able to make money from 6 these scenarios. 7 Although Mr Barber was not employed by the 8 Post Office, he was told that he would have to attend 9 the police station to give a statement. Initially, he 10 tried to refuse. However, a police officer turned up 11 at the house and Mr Barber was taken to the police 12 station where two investigators interviewed him. 13 Mr Barber attended Warrington Magistrates' Court on 14 6 June 2012 with Mrs Barber and pleaded guilty to 15 fraud. Both pleaded guilty after the legal 16 representatives told them they would most likely go to 17 prison if they didn't. 18 Following the guilty plea, Mr Barber received 19 a 12-month community order and the requirement to 20 undertake 100 hours of unpaid work. To pay the 21 shortfall back, Mr and Mrs Barber had to find money 22 from external sources. They used £50,000 of 23 inheritance, borrowed £30,000 from family, and sold 24 their family car. Mr and Mrs Barber had to sell their 25 business at a loss and they also had to sell their 61 1 home when they could no longer pay the mortgage. 2 Their home then took three years to sell; all the 3 while, the debt they incurred was mounting. 4 In addition to this, Mr Barber gives evidence as 5 to the detail of their convictions being reported in 6 both local and national press. He says: 7 "It felt like everyone knew who we were and what 8 we allegedly did. It was very embarrassing for us and 9 as such we avoided going out as much as possible. It 10 was humiliating as people wouldn't make eye contact 11 with us and avoided us completely. We were very much 12 involved in our local community and knew most of the 13 residents. They suddenly stopped talking to us." 14 Mr Barber says his mental health suffered too. 15 He says: 16 "I became depressed and knew that this was going 17 to financially ruin me and my wife. I put all my 18 efforts into doing as many hours as I could at the 19 airport seven days a week, and my wife and I barely 20 saw each other." 21 Mr Barber says his conviction also put a strain 22 on his relationships, including with his family. 23 Prior to the incident, he and Mrs Barber had a big 24 role in the community and were well known. He said: 25 "Following the conviction, everyone only saw us 62 1 as guilty and people just stopped talking to us. Even 2 our family stopped speaking and seeing us. It was 3 horrific." 4 The only family that Mr Barber speaks to, other 5 than Mrs Barber, is now their daughter. They lost 6 contact even with close family, he says, who saw them 7 as guilty. Their experiences also had an impact on 8 their daughter and she was, he says, "deeply impacted 9 by the way they were treated" and, he says, "since the 10 incident she's never worked."He believes it's had 11 a devastating impact on her and it will be difficult 12 for her to move on. 13 Whilst Mr and Mrs Barber's convictions have now 14 been overturned, he says: 15 "The experience has marked us forever." 16 He adds: 17 "The whole process makes me angry, and I'm still 18 angry now -- particularly as the Post Office 19 apparently knew all about this and didn't prevent it 20 from happening." 21 He says he continues to experience these 22 feelings, and adds: 23 "Having strangers retelling our stories brings 24 back these feelings all the time." 25 Sir, I think that may be a convenient time to 63 1 stop. 2 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you very much. So the clock in 3 front of me is idiosyncratic, to say the least. What 4 is the time? It's 1.02, okay. So we'll start again 5 at 2.00. Fine. 6 (1.01 pm) 7 (Luncheon Adjournment) 8 (2.00 pm) 9 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, Ms Hodge? 10 MS HODGE: Our next witness is Mr Mark Kelly. 11 MARK FRANCIS BRIAN KELLY (sworn) 12 Questioned by MS HODGE 13 Q. Mr Kelly, my name is Catriona Hodge, as you know, and 14 I ask questions on behalf of the Inquiry. 15 Please can you state your full name. 16 A. My full name is Mark Francis Brian Kelly. 17 Q. Thank you. Mr Kelly, you made a statement on 18 20 January of this year; is that correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you have a copy of that statement in front of you? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Please could you turn to the final page of your 23 statement at page 20. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Is that your signature at the top of the page? 64 1 A. Yes, it is. 2 Q. Have you had a chance to reread your statement since 3 you made it on 20 January? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is its content true to the best of your knowledge and 6 belief? 7 A. Yes, everything is fine, except from the background, 8 number 3. It's saying part time; it was full time. 9 Q. Forgive me, is this paragraph 3? 10 A. Paragraph 3, yes. 11 Q. You are referring to your work for Lloyds Bank? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. You were, in fact, working full time; is that correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Thank you. So apart from that one correction is the 16 content otherwise true? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Thank you. I would like to begin by asking you a few 19 questions about your background. 20 How old are you now? 21 A. I'm 43 years old. 22 Q. And you are married; is that right? 23 A. Married, yes. Her name is Olga Kelly. 24 Q. For how long have you been married to Mrs Kelly? 25 A. 22 years, coming up to. 65 1 Q. After you left school, you studied at Cardiff 2 University; is that right? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. What was your degree in? 5 A. Computer science. 6 Q. What did you do upon leaving university? 7 A. We went and took over my parents' Post Office because 8 my Mum had an armed robbery so she had a breakdown 9 from it and she was getting losses which at the time 10 we thought they were to do the fact that she wasn't 11 IT -- so good on IT. So we did a family transfer to 12 keep the office open for the community because in the 13 place there were a lot of old pensioners, there was 14 a day centre, there was a disabled centre nearby. 15 Q. Thank you. You have just explained that you took over 16 your parents' branch. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. If I can just ask you a first question about that, 19 which branch are you referring to? 20 A. Brondeg Post Office. 21 Q. Where is that located? 22 A. In Swansea, in Mandelson. 23 Q. Thank you. Before you took over the branch, did you 24 assist your parents in running it? 25 A. Yes, I used to be a post office clerk. 66 1 Q. Was that whilst you were working full time at Lloyd's 2 Bank? 3 A. That was working like on the weekend and working in 4 between Lloyd's and at university and things. 5 Q. When did your parents acquire that branch? 6 A. They acquired it in 1997 and it was paper-based at the 7 time, and they went for the training and I went for 8 the training with my Mum, the initial training, and 9 then I went to a training when I took over the 10 Post Office again. 11 Q. Was your mother the subpostmistress of the branch? 12 A. Yes, she was. 13 Q. You have explained that your parents' branch 14 experienced an armed robbery; is that right? 15 A. Correct, yes. 16 Q. Do you recall when that was? 17 A. I think that was 1998 and they didn't take any money 18 because my Dad fought the armed robber. They had 19 a gun and he was in the navy before and he got a medal 20 from the Post Office for it and from all that stress 21 caused my Mum to get sectioned under the Mental Health 22 Act. 23 Q. Was it at that point that you decided to take over 24 running the branch? 25 A. Not straight away. Once we finished university and 67 1 things and my wife and I got married they did a family 2 transfer, because I think for about a year or so my 3 Dad was a temporary postmaster for health reasons and 4 then I took over then. 5 Q. Do you recall when you were appointed as the 6 subpostmaster of the branch? 7 A. I was appointed 17 January 2003. 8 Q. You have described a transfer taking place. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Can you just explain what did you pay to purchase the 11 branch? 12 A. The Post Office was, I think, roughly £140,000 but 13 they did -- because we just got married, they did 14 a transfer of 40,000 to my wife and I as like 15 a wedding-type gift, so then we took a £100,000 loan 16 from the bank to purchase the rest. 17 Q. Do you recall signing any documents when you were 18 appointed as a subpostmaster? 19 A. It was like a two or three page document, not the big 20 40-page contract. It's like a -- appointment of 21 office I think it was called. 22 Q. So conditions of appointment -- 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. -- you have mentioned; is that right? That's what you 25 mention in your statement. What did that two-page 68 1 document cover? 2 A. It just covered saying like you're the postmaster of 3 Brondeg Post Office, these are the hours you have to 4 open, et cetera. 5 Q. Were you required to sign any other documents? 6 A. No, just the only bit was to sign to say this is what 7 the account was when my parents had it and this is the 8 account that I have now; so from that time onwards, 9 any gains or losses are my responsibility. 10 Q. How much income did you receive from the Post Office 11 when you were appointed the subpostmaster? 12 A. When I was appointed, it was about, I think, 21,000. 13 Q. Did that increase -- 14 A. Increased and goes up to about, in a couple of years, 15 about 30,000. 16 Q. What sorts of goods and services did you provide from 17 the branch? 18 A. At the very beginning, when we took over from my 19 parents, we had just the Post Office and stationery 20 and greeting cards, but we got rid of the greeting 21 cards and put like a little pet shop in there and, 22 a bit later on, we did DVD rentals as well. 23 Q. You have mentioned a pet shop. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Was that a successful venture? 69 1 A. It was successful whilst the Post Office was open, 2 yes. 3 Q. Did you employ staff to help you run the branch? 4 A. We employed two staff. We employed my wife, Olga 5 Kelly, and the second one was Caroline Butler I think 6 her name was. 7 Q. Before we come to your experience of using Horizon, 8 I'd like to ask you about the two armed robberies that 9 you experienced whilst you were subpostmaster of the 10 branch. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. The first was in November 2003; is that right? 13 A. Correct, yes. 14 Q. On that occasion you describe being threatened with 15 a gun and a rock. Is that what happened? 16 A. Yes, a rock, and they used a rock and threw it through 17 the counter and when it was going through the counter 18 we had -- I had to move my head so I went away from 19 the counter so I didn't press the panic button. We 20 went to the back and we called 999 on the phone. 21 After about I think let's say £45,000 was stolen 22 or something the Post Office wrote a couple of days 23 later saying we are liable for the whole amount 24 because we didn't press the panic button. I spoke to 25 Mark Baker at the time and he said that's very, very 70 1 outrageous. I wrote a letter to my head of area, 2 Ruth -- that's her surname, I don't know her first 3 name -- and I wrote and said, "If you come to my 4 office, stay behind the counter. Don't move 1 5 centimetre, I'll throw a brick at you. I'll gladly 6 pay the £45,000". 7 After that letter, I went to see Angela, the 8 head of area, and afterwards it was then dropped, that 9 request for that £45,000 for the loss. 10 Q. The second occasion I think was on 16 November 2004; 11 is that right? 12 A. Correct, yes. 13 Q. On that occasion -- forgive me, in relation to the 14 figures you mentioned, the November 2003, you recall 15 the sum of £47,000. 16 A. Yes, the one that's on my statement is the more 17 correct one, yes. 18 Q. Right, because I think it was on the second occasion 19 that you have stated a sum of about £40,000 was 20 stolen. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Is that right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And the police attended your branch on that occasion; 25 is that correct? 71 1 A. The police and the audit people came at the same time, 2 yes, and they counted the stock and they confirmed 3 that everything was -- the amount was stolen and there 4 was nothing left in the office and they said 5 everything had gone, in other words. 6 Q. What action was taken by the police in relation to the 7 theft? 8 A. On the police, they did manage to capture one person 9 for the armed robbery. When the police asked the 10 Post Office do they want to claim the losses from the 11 person who did the armed robbery, the Post Office 12 declined and they then tried to claim the loss from us 13 again. 14 Q. Just to be clear, the Post Office were asked by the 15 police if they wished to recover the sum of 16 approximately £47,000 from the person who had been 17 identified as stealing it? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And they said no? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. But they did come after you for the sum? 22 A. Yes, and the police used blood to find that person. 23 Q. Did you pay that sum? 24 A. No. We had an argument and then it was dropped. 25 Q. I'll come back to the audit of your branch on that 72 1 occasion but I'd like to ask you now about training. 2 You have mentioned already that your parents acquired 3 the branch in 1997 and you attended some training with 4 your mother; is that correct? 5 A. Correct, yes. 6 Q. Do you recall when Horizon was first installed at your 7 parents' branch? 8 A. I think it was installed in 1999. 9 Q. And is it correct that you had already begun to assist 10 your parents in running the branch by that stage? 11 A. Yes, I was -- from 1997 onwards I was always in the 12 Post Office, either full-time or part-time depending 13 on the situation, like university and things, and 14 I was there when Horizon was installed and when it was 15 paper-based as well. 16 Q. You have explained you received a day of training; is 17 that correct? 18 A. With my Mum. 19 Q. Initially? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. In a hotel near to your Post Office? 22 A. Correct, yes. 23 Q. Can you briefly describe what that training entailed? 24 A. It entailed how to use Horizon quickly and also how to 25 like up-sell, but mostly just how to use Horizon, but 73 1 it wasn't a live system. It was just a dummy 2 terminal. I managed to pick it up very, very quickly 3 but my Mum struggled with it. She was the last one to 4 leave that day. 5 Q. Do you recall whether you or your mother received any 6 training on the balancing of accounts? 7 A. Not on that one day training. I know later on my Mum 8 requested a trainer to come to help her balance and 9 I don't know the result of that balance, did it 10 balance or not, I don't know. 11 Q. What was your impression of the adequacy of that 12 training that you received at that time? 13 A. For people who were at that time buying Post Office or 14 running Post Office who were not brought up with IT 15 and things, I thought it didn't -- it lacked very good 16 training because like my Mum she doesn't use computers 17 and she struggled with it and a lot of other people 18 were struggling from it. 19 Q. When you were appointed the subpostmaster in 2003, did 20 you receive any further training? 21 A. Yes, we went to -- at the time it was, I don't know if 22 it still exists, it was called Albany Road Post Office 23 in Cardiff, went to training there and they also came 24 to my office as well. At the time, we also told the 25 trainee some things that they were telling people to 74 1 be wrong. Like one thing was British Gas payments 2 with a smartcard, they cannot be reversed. So you had 3 to make sure the customer's got a payment before you 4 do the transaction. Whereas other transactions you 5 can reverse it, those ones you can't. So if you don't 6 get the money, then if the customer can't pay you'll 7 be short because you can't reverse it. 8 Q. Is this something your trainer -- 9 A. Did not know. 10 Q. Did not know, but which you explained? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. In your view, how knowledgeable was your trainer about 13 that Horizon system? 14 A. I would say quite average -- not that good. 15 Q. Did you receive any training in branch? 16 A. I received like the trainer who came for one balance 17 and sat with us but, see, because she felt that we 18 knew more than her she just didn't do much. She just 19 watched us really. 20 Q. Did you receive any further training from the 21 Post Office after your -- 22 A. The only training we got then afterwards, we used to 23 get these memo books every week or every couple of 24 weeks sent in the post and it would say this is the 25 new product, this is how you process it. 75 1 One thing I did tell the Post Office I thought 2 was annoying as a sub-post office we had to open from 3 9 am until 5 pm five days a week, whereas the Crown 4 Office always had a training time to train the staff 5 which was 9 to 9.30 on a Wednesday, so any new 6 products came in they can train their staff how to run 7 it, whereas we had to do it whilst the customers were 8 coming in and out. 9 Q. If I've understood you correctly, you are saying the 10 Post Office communicated changes in products to you 11 via a weekly memo? 12 A. That's correct, yes. 13 Q. Did you find that helpful? 14 A. I found it all right for myself but I also think it 15 could have been better for other people like having an 16 CD with a video demonstration and things like that, 17 which they didn't do. 18 Q. Did you experience problems using the Horizon system? 19 A. I did experience some losses and errors and there 20 was -- there were a few losses like on foreign 21 exchange. There was a £200 error notice which was 22 tracked to a customer but it was used a debit card, 23 and because he changed his debit card, we couldn't get 24 the money back from the Post Office. 25 Q. What were you advised to do? Who were you to contact 76 1 if you experienced problems with Horizon? 2 A. I called the helpline. Sometimes they would say 3 contact the customer like on that currency. Sometimes 4 they might say contact Alliance & Leicester at the 5 time or sometimes they would say, well, you're the 6 only one with the problem at the beginning and it 7 should come and sort itself out like in a couple of 8 weeks time if there was an error or whatever. 9 Q. How often did you contact the helpline? Can you 10 recall? 11 A. I would say on different occasions, different 12 problems, it would be five times a week. 13 Q. I'd like to ask you about an issue you reported in 14 January 2006 relating to a suspected bug in the 15 Horizon system. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You've explained in your statement that you identified 18 a bug relating to the smart post stamp function? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Can you explain what that is, please. 21 A. At the time they were just moving from having stamps 22 in the office to having stamps being produced on 23 a label so it creates the stock virtually and -- do 24 you want me to explain the bug? 25 Q. Well, please. 77 1 A. Yes. What the bug was, when the virtual stock gets 2 generated it allows it to have anything else that is 3 on the stack to be ghosted so it becomes two 4 transactions, so if you had like a £200 BT bill then 5 the system would think there was two times £200 BT 6 bill. But when you do your accounts and stuff the 7 second bill is not shown. If you did a deposit of, 8 say, £400 then it will come up as two £400 deposits. 9 If you took money out of say £300 it would take out 10 £300 times two. It doubles it. 11 Q. Were you able to work out why the stamp function was 12 causing those discrepancies? 13 A. I couldn't work out 100 per cent what was causing it 14 but it was causing two transactions, and that's -- the 15 reason that made me look for all these problems was if 16 you go back to the second robbery, after the police 17 and the audit did all my accounts, they told me I had 18 to open the next day, if I didn't open the next day 19 then don't bother opening at all. 20 So once we did the -- our account, the system 21 came up and said we were minus £2,000 on the office 22 and I had a big argument with the help desk and I said 23 how can I be on minus 2,000. I can't give more than 24 what the office have. In the end, it was agreed that 25 it would be put into a suspense account which it 78 1 stayed until 2006 and that's why I've been looking. 2 Q. Thank you. Coming back to the question of this bug 3 that you suspected in the system, what did you do to 4 try to get to the bottom of the problem? 5 A. I contacted the Post Office help desk, reported it. 6 I also contacted a couple of other offices I know to 7 see if they had the same -- if they do the same step 8 would it cause the same problem and they have 9 confirmed it did. 10 The Post Office then later on referred it to 11 sort of like a third level, which was Fujitsu, who 12 called me up and they said, "We managed to replicate 13 the bug. We know about it". 14 I was at the time the branch secretary for the 15 Swansea branch and I said, "Well, are you going to 16 send a memo view to tell people just, for example, if 17 you're going to do a smart stamp don't do any other 18 transactions at the same time, just do them 19 separately. That way the bug won't get triggered", 20 and they said, "No, we won't do that. We'll just let 21 it carry on". I said, "Well, I will give you 30 days' 22 notice and if you don't say anything, I will then make 23 it public at the Federation conference", at the time. 24 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Excuse me, could I just ask you to try 25 and remember this conversation you were having, was it 79 1 with the Post Office helpline or was it with an 2 employee or employees of Fujitsu? 3 A. It was both. I called the help desk and later on the 4 Fujitsu helpline called up. 5 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: So you explained the existence of this 6 bug? 7 A. Yes. 8 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Both to Post Office and Fujitsu? 9 A. Yes, and the Fujitsu person confirmed they replicated 10 the bug in the internal. 11 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you. 12 MS HODGE: You have explained that you told the 13 Post Office that you would inform other subpostmasters 14 if they didn't. To your knowledge, did they inform 15 other subpostmasters of the existence of this bug? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Just to be absolutely clear, you have explained that 18 you detected duplicate transactions, in effect, when 19 this smart post stamp function was being used; is that 20 right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. In conjunction with a bank card payment; is that what 23 triggered it? 24 A. If you use a bank card it brings the bug up so you can 25 see it. If you don't use a bank card it's still 80 1 relevant, it still happens. If you've used a bank 2 card, it triggers the other bug that brings up the 3 stack that you can see it happening. 4 Q. So it was the fact of using the stamp function itself 5 which was causing the duplication; is that right? To 6 your knowledge? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. You have mentioned that you experienced a number of 9 shortfalls when using -- forgive me, apparent 10 shortfalls when you were using the Horizon system. 11 One of them you have dated to 4 January 2006? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. That one you say related to the giros; is that 14 correct? 15 A. Correct, yes. 16 Q. Can you explain what happened on that occasion. 17 A. Well, because at the time we had DVD rentals and 18 things so we did open late sometimes, and it was 19 something about we put the giros in about 8.00 at 20 night and it turns out something about there's 21 a cut-off time but they don't actually tell you if 22 it's not done by 7.30 it's not counted or something, 23 but we only found out after the error notice we got 24 told it. 25 Q. And what did you do to report that discrepancy? 81 1 A. What do you mean by that, sorry? 2 Q. Forgive me, on this occasion you said you tried to put 3 the giro through the system, is that right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. But it hadn't recorded it? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What then happened? 8 A. We got like an error notice saying there's a shortfall 9 and we had to pay it back. 10 Q. Did you pay it back? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How did you do that? 13 A. Just put the cash into the office. 14 Q. You have set out in your statement a number of 15 shortfalls that you experienced. You have itemised 16 them between paragraphs 52 and 56. I don't propose to 17 take you through each even every one but I have 18 a couple of questions for you, if I may. 19 How did you keep records of the shortfalls that 20 you experienced? 21 A. When I was doing -- when I was getting all the 22 documents for the High Court, because we lost our 23 house and my wife did keep some of the documents we 24 could find, when I was going through all the documents 25 I found some of these error notices still within the 82 1 files. So that's how I got those actual days and 2 figures and submitted it on to the accounts. 3 Q. When you say within the files, are you talking about 4 electronic records or paper records -- 5 A. Paper records. 6 Q. -- that you had retained. Had you printed those off 7 the system or were they handwritten records you had 8 made yourself? 9 A. No, they were actually error notice from the 10 Post Office or error notice from the Horizon, stuff 11 like that. 12 Q. In relation to the figures you have mentioned, you 13 have said against the vast majority of them that they 14 were repaid in full. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. How did you repay those sums? 17 A. Normally at the beginning you would put the money into 18 the account and then when you balance it will put it 19 back up or I think later on it would come up on the 20 system saying there was an error notice, do you agree 21 or not agree? You can say yes and then it will adjust 22 itself and you need to put the money in. 23 Q. Were you always putting cash in or were you having 24 money deducted from your salary as well? 25 A. No, I never did the salary deduction, to my knowledge. 83 1 Q. You've said in respect of many of these shortfalls 2 that you declared them by following the Post Office 3 procedure. Do you mean by that that you reported them 4 to the helpline? 5 A. They either noticed the error and they sent me an 6 error notice for it or I reported it to the helpline, 7 yes. 8 Q. Can you estimate how much you think you paid out to 9 make good shortfalls shown by Horizon? 10 A. The only one I know on top of my head, the total was 11 the final one of the 13,000. Now, if you add the 12 other ones beforehand, I can't tell you how much that 13 is altogether, no. 14 Q. You've described -- we've discussed already the armed 15 robbery that you experienced on 16 November 2004. I'd 16 like to ask you a bit more about the audit that took 17 place on the day that -- I think it was, forgive me, 18 the following day; is that correct? 19 A. The audit was done on the day of the robbery. 20 Q. The same day? 21 A. They came, I think it was the same day. They came 22 with the police and they saw what was stolen and they 23 confirmed whatever amount was stolen at the time and 24 there was nothing left in the office. 25 Q. So the purpose of that specific audit was simply to 84 1 establish how much money had been taken; is that 2 right? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. You've explained that a shortfall appeared the 5 following day; is that right? 6 A. Yes, because I had to balance that because it happened 7 on a Tuesday and Wednesday was the day that we had to 8 balance. So we used Wednesday to also get the door 9 fixed and when we did the balance the system came up 10 that we were minus £2,000 short. 11 Q. Now, when the auditor had checked how much was missing 12 the previous day, what had the auditor then done? 13 A. He just signed on the paper and it was like no money 14 left in the office and that's why when he came to do 15 the audit -- when he came next day to do a balance it 16 came up minus 2,000. 17 Q. Had there been any transactions put through the system 18 between the auditor leaving and you balancing the 19 following day? 20 A. No, nothing. We were completely closed and they were 21 putting the door in. 22 Q. What did you do when this apparent shortfall of £2,000 23 arose? 24 A. I called the Post Office up, the help desk, and I said 25 I'm not accepting this £2,000 shortfall. I said, 85 1 "We've been closed. The day before the Post Office 2 with the police and the audit team counted all the 3 money and they confirmed what was stolen. Unless 4 you're saying they took the money, I don't see how it 5 could be minus £2,000 in the office". 6 We had a big argument. They said, "You have to 7 accept it if you want to open". I said, "I'm not 8 going to accept it", so in the end it was agreed to 9 put it into the suspense account which it stayed until 10 2006. 11 Q. You ran your branch for approximately three-and-a-half 12 years; is that right -- 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. -- as the subpostmaster? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. How many times were your accounts audited in that 17 time? 18 A. After Network Reinvention started to become a thing in 19 the network, we start -- and after -- so there was -- 20 in our area there was Brondeg Post Office, there was 21 Robert Street Post Office and there was Cwmbwrla 22 Post Office, and at the time the Post Office wanted to 23 close Cwmbwrla Post Office, which they agreed, and 24 they wanted to close one other office, either myself 25 or Robert Street, and then they were going to put 86 1 a new office at CK Supermarket down the road. 2 I didn't want to close because of the community. 3 We were very close to the disabled centre and things, 4 whereas Robert Street did want to close but he then 5 later on changed. After the first robbery they came 6 back to us and said, "Did you want to close now 7 because you had the armed robbery". I said, "No, 8 I will still want to stay open because I want to 9 provide the service for the community at the time". 10 In hindsight, I probably should have closed then but 11 hindsight is a good thing to have. 12 After that, when I refused it in 2003, that's 13 when we started to get a lot more audits, to -- 14 thinking they were trying to find something to close 15 an office down, and one audit I think was some time in 16 2004 in the summer. He came in and overall we were 17 about £200 short which we paid it back with a cheque. 18 But he was there for like nearly all day and he was 19 looking through all the stock, all the -- all the 20 stock, all the accounts transaction on the phone, like 21 he was looking for something but he couldn't find it, 22 so then he had to go with that £200. 23 Q. The final audit of your branch was on 20 July 2006; is 24 that right? 25 A. Correct, yes. 87 1 Q. By whom was that audit conducted? 2 A. Initially, the retail line manager said that she's 3 coming in because a customer complained about the 4 lavender smell saying it was putting her off having 5 a lavender smell in the office, and the fact that we 6 recommended sending a parcel to Russia in a certain 7 way, which we never would have done. She said, 8 "Because I'm here, I will check -- I'll do an audit", 9 and when she did the audit she was something like -- I 10 can't remember in my head now. I think it was £9,000 11 short. I did not know where that shortfall come. 12 There was a couple -- there was some money which 13 I think I might have known where it came from at the 14 time but not a £9,000 figure. I can't remember what 15 it was, maybe £200 or £1,000 shortfall, I wouldn't 16 know. She said that, "Well, we're going to now have 17 to close your office", and she called for an audit 18 team to come down. There's one guy who had been 19 coming now for the last three years. It's the same 20 audit person. When he did the audit he found about 21 £13,000 short, so it's gone up from £9,000 up to 22 £13,000. 23 At the time the retail line manager said that, 24 "If you resign your position then we won't prosecute 25 you for false accounting and theft", so I just said in 88 1 the end, "Okay, I'll resign then", and I called -- 2 I called Keith Richards about what was going on. He 3 said, "Well, because you resigned now you're on your 4 own". 5 I called -- 6 Q. Who's Keith Richards, please? 7 A. He was the Welsh Executive Officer. 8 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Of the Federation? 9 A. Yes. I called Mark Baker and Mark Baker said, "Well, 10 you haven't been paid your grant, so less offsetting 11 as well", and also he advised to get a solicitor, 12 "Don't go with the Federation or go by yourself". So 13 we got a solicitor. 14 MS HODGE: Thank you. Mr Kelly, just coming back, you 15 have mentioned that you resigned. Were you suspended 16 before you took the decision to resign from your 17 position as a subpostmaster? 18 A. Sorry, I was suspended then. Later on I resigned, 19 sorry, yes. 20 Q. Do you recall when you were suspended? 21 A. I was suspended on that day. It was later on 22 I resigned. 23 Q. Is that the date of the audit? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Forgive me, you just explained you were advised by 89 1 Mr Baker to obtain a legal representative; is that 2 right? 3 A. Correct, yes. 4 Q. That was in connection with the criminal 5 investigation? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. You've explained in your statement you were invited to 8 attend an interview under caution. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Was that in connection with the alleged shortfall that 11 was found in July 2006? 12 A. Correct, yes. 13 Q. Who invited you to attend your interview under 14 caution? 15 A. The first time the Post Office interviewed me and they 16 wanted to interview me when I was under the Mental 17 Health Act and the solicitor said no, that's 18 unacceptable because they completely -- during the 19 interview, completely traumatised. I couldn't 20 remember -- I just could not answer anything. I can't 21 remember that part much. 22 Q. I quite understand. 23 You've just mentioned that you were detained 24 under the Mental Health Act; is that correct? 25 A. Yes. 90 1 Q. When did that happen? 2 A. After the -- when I got suspended the GP gave me 3 tablets and stuff. When I went then to the -- the 4 Post Office wanted to interview me and I start to have 5 an interview and I just completely blanked out. What 6 I'd been told by people at the time I didn't -- 7 I could not respond to names or anything and the 8 Post Office said, "Oh, that's fine. We can carry on". 9 My solicitors, "No, he can't. He's not fit to be 10 interviewed". 11 Q. So you had a solicitor with you on that first occasion 12 that you attended for interview? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Is that right, with I think you said it was 15 Post Office investigators; is that correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you recall where that interview took place? 18 A. The first one I don't remember but the second one was 19 at the police station. 20 Q. And it was during the course of that interview that 21 you experienced a breakdown in your mental health; is 22 that right? 23 A. On the first one -- 24 Q. The first interview. 25 A. -- I had the breakdown, yes. The second one I do 91 1 remember was at the police station. That one I do -- 2 the second one I remember more than the first one. 3 Q. For how long did you receive treatment? 4 A. Well, I had treatment longer than that but the doctor 5 said I was well enough to be interviewed under caution 6 about six months later and that's then at the police 7 station. 8 Q. Do you recall for how long you were detained in 9 hospital? You were detained in hospital? 10 A. No, I was outside -- 11 Q. Forgive me. Sorry, please do carry on. 12 A. I was in the house but the doctor had, like, control 13 of my medication, finance and things. 14 Q. Right. Had you had any problems with your mental 15 health before these events occurred? 16 A. No. 17 Q. What do you believe was the trigger for these events? 18 A. The fact that the Post Office was -- all the losses, 19 the stress from it, trying to find it all, and no-one 20 would listen, and how they conducted themselves 21 afterwards with all the threats, like on the second 22 enquiry -- not enquiry, the second interview, when the 23 solicitor said that we would use the bug that he found 24 as part of the defence and the Post Office then sort 25 of left it, but just before we left it was said, "Oh, 92 1 we might go for your wife", and that completely phased 2 me then and I panicked again and I said, "Oh, I'll 3 plead if you want", because at the time my wife was on 4 a visa for UK. 5 Q. Just to break that down a little bit, Mr Kelly, 6 I think you've explained that after you were under the 7 care of your GP for six months? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Is that right, and he said you were fit to be 10 interviewed again? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You attended a second interview? 13 A. Yes, and they knew why I was -- I couldn't do the 14 interview the first time. They knew it was because of 15 my anxiety and panic from PTSD from the doctor. 16 Q. On the second occasion you were represented again by 17 a lawyer; is that right? 18 A. The same one, yes. 19 Q. What advice did your lawyer give you precisely as to 20 how you were to defend yourself against the charges? 21 A. They said just plead not guilty and if they want to 22 proceed it to court they would use the bug that 23 I discovered as part of the defence to -- against 24 the -- why the figure was £13,000. 25 Q. When you refer to the bug, you're talking about that 93 1 stamp post -- sorry, the smart post stamp function; is 2 that right? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Which you had raised back in January 2006? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. What evidence did you have to show that this had 7 occurred and that you had raised concerns about it? 8 A. I got the screenshots and I called them up. If you 9 told me did I have any call references, I do have but 10 I don't know where they are now. But I did call them 11 up at the time. 12 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Mr Kelly, I'm not as familiar with 13 jargon about computers as some people. When you say 14 you had screenshots can you tell me what you had done 15 to get those. 16 A. Well, I did every single step and I took a screenshot. 17 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: So a photograph with your mobile phone 18 or something; is that what you're talking about? 19 A. Yes. 20 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, fine. 21 A. And it showed at the very end the double transaction. 22 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: So you had a sort of photographic 23 record of what you had discovered in relation to 24 Horizon. 25 A. Correct, it's a physical -- you can see the step by 94 1 step the bug getting produced. 2 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Fine, thanks. I just wanted to make 3 sure I had it right. 4 MS HODGE: In terms of timings, I know it's difficult to 5 recall precise dates but we know that your audit 6 occurred on 20 July 2006. So this second interview 7 would have been approximately six months later; is 8 that right? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Roughly. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you had retained these screenshots you had taken; 13 is that right? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. What had you done with those? 16 A. I gave them to my solicitor who used that as part of 17 the defence. 18 Q. During the course of your interview? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Right. 21 A. They showed the screenshots to those people because 22 what they initially said to her was how are you going 23 to prove this bug exists because she said she knew 24 about this bug and then she dropped the screenshots, 25 and they were surprised and then that's when it 95 1 practically terminated. 2 Q. You have mentioned already your first interview was 3 carried out by Post Office investigators? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Who conducted your second interview? 6 A. The same people, the same two -- two men. 7 Q. You've explained when shown that evidence the 8 Post Office didn't take any further action against 9 you; is that right? 10 A. They didn't take any further action but they also did 11 not say they were not going to proceed anymore. So 12 for years later I just felt like if I -- firstly 13 because the Secrets Act, if I did make it more public 14 they would go after me and also at the time I wasn't 15 well enough. 16 It was only 2010 I started to become more well 17 and that's when I discovered about all the other 18 people getting affected with Horizon and people 19 committing suicide, person -- Seema, who went to 20 prison pregnant, and I started to feel guilty about 21 all of that and I felt I was partly to blame for it 22 all. 23 Q. You have mentioned already that your wife assisted you 24 in running the branch. 25 A. Correct. 96 1 Q. Did she herself come under suspicion with the 2 Post Office in relation to the shortfall of circa 3 £12,000/£13,000? 4 A. She didn't come -- she wasn't suspected of it until my 5 solicitor presented that bug, the screenshot, and then 6 they've said at the end, "Well, we might then 7 prosecute your wife if you don't plead guilty", and 8 that completely flipped me up then. 9 Q. You recall this being after you produced the evidence 10 of the bug? 11 A. Yes, and the solicitor said then, "I'll sort it out 12 with them", after I left. 13 Q. You've told us already that you ultimately chose to 14 resign your office as a subpostmaster? 15 A. I resigned on that day, on the second interview, 16 permanently, yes. 17 Q. What led you to that decision? 18 A. It was too stressful. I couldn't handle anymore. 19 I couldn't do anything. I couldn't think of anything 20 and I knew I couldn't -- I wouldn't be able to run it 21 anymore. Even if they said to me you can have the 22 office back I wouldn't be able to run it then. I was 23 too gone. 24 Q. What had you originally hoped to do with your 25 Post Office business and your retail businesses? 97 1 A. Well, we were originally hoping to keep the office 2 going, the pet shop would carry on, it was expanding 3 at the time, and we would start a family because it 4 was a three-bedroomed house, no sorry, four, it was 5 a four bedroom house, which would have been enough to 6 have a family, but after the breakdown and things like 7 that and we lost the house from it all, we thought we 8 couldn't have a family because we had no house, no 9 stability. And the reason we lost the house was the 10 bank, NatWest, they had on the business loan it had to 11 be a post office, because the post office had got 12 closed they would not take any money to pay the loan 13 and they recalled it instead and they would not give 14 the lease, the deed, to Lloyd's for it to be 15 remortgaged so it got repossessed in the end. 16 Q. That left you without a home? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. Is that right? In terms of your original investment 19 in the business you've explained you were gifted 20 £45,000 by your parents? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. Which you used as equity to fund the purchase of the 23 premises? 24 A. It counted as a deposit for the loan. 25 Q. Forgive me, and you had taken the loan of 98 1 approximately £100,000? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. In relation to the business? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You have mentioned that the house was repossessed. 6 What then happened to the property? 7 A. It was sold at auction for about £85,000. 8 Q. And how were the proceeds of sale administered? 9 A. It was just sold and NatWest kept the money for the 10 business loan, that was it, and the £13,000 shortfall 11 the Post Office said I was liable for, it was offset 12 against the grant they haven't paid yet because we 13 were supposed to have about £13,000 grant under the 14 network reinvention because we hadn't been paid for it 15 yet, so it cancelled each other out. 16 Q. So were you allowed to offset those sums? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. That was for an alleged shortfall shown by Horizon? 19 A. When I got interviewed there was a £13,000 shortfall 20 and I was -- there was a £13,000 outstanding grant 21 Post Office hadn't paid me, so it cancelled each other 22 out. 23 Q. Was the grant the matter that Mark Baker had raised? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. I think you mentioned that Mark Baker had alerted you 99 1 for the fact that you would be entitled to a grant 2 under the network transformation programme. 3 What is the current state of your finances 4 Mr Kelly? 5 A. Well, everything is in my wife's name. She's got the 6 shop because I can't really now run a business. 7 I don't trust myself to do it all. I help my wife in 8 the shop until this Covid all started, and I also help 9 with my Mum, I do the care, because she's now got, 10 sort of -- she can't remember things at all and she 11 can't move much so I have to be her carer. 12 Q. Have you -- you have explained you are caring for your 13 Mum. Were you able to find alternative employment 14 when your appointment as a subpostmaster ended? 15 A. No, because I didn't -- because one thing is I had all 16 that mental illness, I couldn't trust myself, 17 I thought, to do things. And also I felt if 18 I contacted the Post Office for, like, a reference or 19 whatever they might say, oh -- firstly, they probably 20 wouldn't give a good reference if they would but also 21 they might have said, "Oh, we forgot to prosecute him" 22 or something. So I just -- I didn't do anything. 23 Just help with my wife, I did, in the business. 24 Q. You've told us already what impact the first interview 25 had on your mental health. Can you describe how you 100 1 felt at the time psychologically to be experiencing 2 repeated shortfalls in your accounts shown by the 3 Horizon system? 4 A. I got very, very stressed, especially sometimes when 5 the office was not that busy and we still had some big 6 shortfall and ... anxious and it was quite irritating 7 to call the helpline and you have to wait, like, until 8 next day for information which doesn't always help. 9 Q. We know that as a result of your first interview you 10 were placed under the care of your GP. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How did you feel when you were invited to attend 13 a second interview by the Post Office under caution? 14 A. Very, very anxious basically, because it was at the 15 police station, and nervous but it's something that 16 had to be done. 17 Q. What's been the longer term effect of these events 18 upon your health and your well-being? 19 A. Well, I'm very, very anxious now and I get stressed 20 quite easily and I got PTSD and I quite often blame 21 myself. I keep on thinking that I caused some of 22 these problems for a lot of people, the fact that 23 I didn't publish the bug when I could have. I've 24 become quite suicidal and a couple of times did try to 25 do it. Yeah. 101 1 Q. You've mentioned your wife Olga and your aspirations, 2 your previous aspirations to have a family. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. How has she been affected? 5 A. She's been more -- she's been a bit stressed and she's 6 been a bit recluse-less but she is stronger than me 7 and -- yeah, going back to the bit you ... I can't. 8 I lost track of that bit. Never mind. 9 Q. That's okay. I was asking you about Olga, your wife. 10 A. Yeah, I know. She thinks we should just, like, carry 11 on but it's me who can't. Like it was her who told me 12 to go to the High Court, join the group, which I agree 13 with because I was thinking could I cope with it, 14 opening old wounds and stuff. 15 Q. But she encouraged you to join the Group Litigation? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. What effect did the audit and the criminal 18 investigation have upon your standing in your local 19 community? 20 A. There was a lot of rumours going around because we 21 wasn't put in the papers, but a lot of people thought, 22 oh, we must have been involved in the armed robbery 23 and that's -- that's why we'd been closed because they 24 found out that we took the money from the office and 25 things, and that's why it affected the pet shop as 102 1 well then because people would not come in. 2 Q. You've explained you participated as a claimant in the 3 Group Litigation. 4 A. Correct, yes. 5 Q. How much did you receive by way of compensation? 6 A. I think in total 28,000. I think it was like -- 7 19,000 -- I think 20,000 for the first payment and 8 8,000 for the second one, something like that. 9 Q. Did this amount cover the losses and the harm that you 10 suffered? 11 A. No. It didn't cover the house, nothing. 12 Q. How do you feel now about the treatment that you 13 received from the Post Office? 14 A. Not good. I actually think the Post Office were doing 15 this to try to close offices down and not pay 16 compensation. They were looking at ways to close them 17 down because the other thing was, what I found out in 18 the High Court -- because I've always been wondering 19 how my office got a £13,000 shortfall, and what came 20 up in the High Court was they can do remote access. 21 So it made me think did they went into my account to 22 put a shortfall in there, so I would not be 23 a postmaster to go to the Federation conference with 24 those screenshots to make everyone in the conference 25 aware of that bug at the time. 103 1 Q. What do you think the Post Office needs to do now to 2 put right what happened to you and other 3 subpostmasters? 4 A. Firstly, they need to pay the full -- not exclude the 5 555 from the compensation. Even though I agree -- as 6 myself, this is -- that if we carried on fighting it 7 would have dragged on for, like, another three years 8 and people with convictions would have been waiting 9 for another three years, they still were punishing the 10 555 that we're not getting our full compensation. 11 They keep saying it's full and final. 12 They also, I think, will need to send like 13 a referral letter that we can give to people we want 14 to work or whatever to say the reason why they've not 15 been working for ten years, five years, whatever is 16 because of what we did to them. 17 And an apology, a sincere apology, in the papers 18 and better training for other postmasters in the 19 future. 20 Q. Thank you, Mr Kelly. I have no further questions 21 I wish to ask you. Is there anything you would like 22 to say which we've not covered? 23 A. Two things which I'd like to say was -- the first one 24 is the -- I think the law of the ... should be 25 activated. It was discussed on the Hillsborough 104 1 Inquiry, the Hillsborough law, because -- and there's 2 two, I can't remember what they call it. One was the 3 candid where the public people have to state the truth 4 all the time, they can't give false information and 5 they have to give information if required. 6 And the second one was the fact that there is 7 a limit of what they can use to prosecute people. So, 8 for argument's sake, a postmaster's legal cover was 9 normally like £50,000. So that would be like the 10 legal budget the Post Office can use to take the 11 person to court, not use millions of pounds to 12 prosecute someone or in a civil case. 13 The second one which I think caused a lot of 14 this problem was the fact that the law was changed in 15 1999 under the PACE 1984 where the computer evidence 16 became an absolute proof in courts, unless someone can 17 prove that the system wasn't robust at the time of the 18 errors, and I can see if that law is not changed 19 somehow -- and I can't say how it would need to be 20 changed -- as we get more and more into computers that 21 will be more scandals coming up with NHS medical 22 records or banks and things. 23 MS HODGE: Thank you, Mr Kelly. 24 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you very much, Mr Kelly. Thank 25 you for coming to give your evidence in such a clear 105 1 and forthright manner. Thank you. 2 MS HODGE: Thank you, sir. That concludes our evidence 3 for this afternoon. 4 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I'm sorry that I'm now going to cause 5 a delay in proceedings but, as I said, I have to take 6 an engagement which has been long-standing for a 7 little while. But hopefully by about 3.40 or 3.45 we 8 can do some more reading of summaries if that's 9 acceptable to everyone. I can't see Ms -- yes, I can 10 see Ms Patrick. Is that all right, Ms Patrick? 11 MS PATRICK: Yes, sir. 12 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: If I finish my engagement more quickly, 13 I'll let everyone know. But assume it will be about 14 3.40. Thank you very much. 15 (2.59 pm) 16 (A short break) 17 (3.41 pm) 18 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Whenever you are ready, Ms Patrick. 19 MS CARINA PRICE, summary read by MS PATRICK 20 MS PATRICK: Thank you, sir. We're starting with 21 a summary of the evidence of Ms Carina Price. 22 Ms Carina Price was appointed subpostmistress of 23 Sopley Post Office in Dorset in 1999. She was married 24 with two then young sons. She bought the business 25 because it fitted well for her and her family's needs. 106 1 The Post Office was in a rural area and they lived in 2 a four bedroom house next door which had a garden for 3 the boys to play in. 4 Ms Price first received error notices on the 5 Horizon system from 2002 to 2003. From then on, she 6 noticed that the figures were regularly wrong and just 7 wouldn't balance. She would she says pull her hair 8 out not being able to understand why. At first she 9 thought it was her making the mistakes and she 10 therefore paid for these initial shortfalls. She 11 estimates out of her own pocket she put in £13,000. 12 She phoned the help desk about these discrepancies to 13 which they always said, "It will bounce back", which 14 she found very frustrating and unhelpful. 15 An auditor visited and Ms Price recalls them 16 saying that she can't just leave £2,000 in the 17 suspense account. She was told to take that money and 18 keep it herself. Ms Price said she couldn't do that 19 as it was Post Office money. Ms Price has various 20 other audits before the audit in 2005 which led to her 21 suspension. Until this audit in 2005, she had paid 22 any shortfall as was shown by Horizon but can't recall 23 the amount of discrepancies at this stage as it was 24 such a long time ago. Ms Price recalls: 25 "I would spend until the early hours trying to 107 1 figure it out and in the end I just had to accept what 2 figures and sign it off." 3 An unannounced audit was carried out by the 4 Post Office in 2005 and a shortfall of £13,000 was 5 found. In 2006 she was charged with numerous counts 6 of suppressing a valuable security and three counts of 7 theft. As the case proceeded to court, her barrister 8 informed her that the shortfalls were in excess of 9 £17,000. She was advised to pay it before court but 10 she realised that the loan she took out didn't cover 11 the shortfalls in addition to her living expenses and 12 her mortgage she says: 13 "I had to take loan out of £37,784 to cover the 14 shortfall, my living expenses and mortgage, believing 15 that I would be able to work and then repay it." 16 She adds: 17 "The whole situation caused me a huge amount of 18 stress. It made me feel awful and very upset." 19 The Post Office told her barrister that if she 20 pled guilty she probably wouldn't get a custodial 21 sentence but she wasn't willing to plead to something 22 she didn't do. She pleaded not guilty. Ms Price was 23 summoned to the Crown Court at Bournemouth on 24 30 November 2005. After her conviction following 25 trial, she was completely devastated and broke down in 108 1 tears. 2 Her whole world, she says, had fallen apart. 3 She never returned to Sopley because she thought her 4 family would be better off without her. She was 5 depressed and had suicidal thoughts. She lost her 6 home, her shop, and her husband. Ms Price says: 7 "I felt like I wanted to jump under a lorry." 8 She visited her GP who was aware of her 9 conviction and she says treated her awfully to the 10 point where she felt she couldn't go back for 11 treatment. 12 Ms Price was sentenced on 19 January 2006 to 13 a suspended prison sentence. Her conviction was 14 quashed in July 2021. Ms Price says she had always 15 been the breadwinner of their family. Her physical 16 health deteriorated and she struggled to cope. She 17 was forced to take out a further loan of £20,000 due 18 to financial pressure, pressure put on her to pay the 19 Post Office. Ms Price says: 20 "I hated being in debt but I had no choice. It 21 was not a comfortable feeling at all. I worried about 22 how I would pay the mortgage." 23 At first she says she missed a lot of repayments 24 and the interest kept getting higher and higher. She 25 had sleepless nights because she thought they were 109 1 going to lose the house. Ms Price is still paying 2 those loans back today and she feels she says like: 3 "I have spent my whole life living with a huge 4 debt hanging over my head." 5 Ms Price says once she had a good relationship 6 with the people in the village. However, they read 7 the articles published around the time of her 8 conviction and decided not to believe her. One local 9 Article suggested she had stolen from vulnerable 10 people. Ms Price left Sopley a few months before her 11 trial and separated from her husband. This involved 12 leaving her sons behind with their father. She hasn't 13 seen her eldest son for quite a while. He doesn't 14 speak with her because she walked away. She has two 15 grandchildren who she has never met. Despite trying 16 to reach out, she thinks they do not want anything to 17 do with her. 18 Ms Price keeps in touch with her youngest son 19 and she enjoys playing games with him once a week. 20 She says she has to live with the stigma and 21 consequences of the conviction which has blighted her 22 life and the lives of her immediate family. She wants 23 to say to the Inquiry not a day passes when she 24 doesn't think about it. 25 MR DAVID THOMAS HEDGES, summary read by MS PATRICK 110 1 MS PATRICK: We move next to the summary of the evidence 2 of Mr David Thomas Hedges. 3 Once Tom Hedges' children had reached secondary 4 school age, he and his wife looked for a change of 5 lifestyle. After four or five months of looking, he 6 was offered the opportunity to buy Hogsthorpe 7 Post Office. Mr Hedges became subpostmaster of the 8 branch. He says it had been drilled into him from the 9 very start that he would be held responsible for any 10 financial loss in the branch. He simply did not have 11 the money to pay repeated shortfalls. 12 He made three separate arrangements to pay 13 around £2,000 each time to the Post Office by 14 instalments. It always seemed strange him, he says, 15 that all the Post Office seemed to be worried about 16 was getting the money, not why it had supposedly gone 17 missing. Between 2003 and 2007 the Post Office he 18 says had always dealt with losses in that way. 19 At the beginning of 2009 a large shortfall of 20 £10,000 occurred. Around this time he borrowed 21 £20,000 to put into the branch. It was, he says, 22 becoming a money pit. 23 On 5 May 2010 the auditors visited his branch. 24 A discrepancy of approximately £23,000 was found and 25 he was immediately suspended. Following Mr Hedges' 111 1 interview under caution his contract was terminated on 2 14 June 2010 and he was charged with theft and three 3 counts of false accounting. Mr Hedges pleaded guilty 4 as he said he felt he had no option. 5 He was terrified he would end up in prison. The 6 criminal solicitor appointed to represent him advised 7 that if he agreed to plead guilty and was able to 8 provide satisfactory character references, then his 9 solicitor told him, Mr Hedges recalls, that he was 10 95 per cent certain that he would receive a suspended 11 sentence rather than a custodial one. Mr Hedges 12 recalls the Post Office was seeking a 4-year custodial 13 sentence. He was subsequently sentenced on 4 February 14 2011 at Lincoln Crown Court and he was sentenced to 15 seven months imprisonment suspended for 18 months, 16 together with 120 hours of unpaid work and costs of 17 £1,000. 18 A few days after Mr Hedges was sentenced his 19 older daughter had to go to someone's house and listen 20 to the owners there going on about the terrible man at 21 the Post Office not knowing that she was his daughter. 22 She suffered 30 minutes of diatribe and vitriol until 23 she got outside, sat in her car and cried for 30 24 minutes. 25 Recently Mr Hedges recalls he came home from 112 1 a shopping trip to find his wife in a confused state. 2 She was so confused that she called him her previous 3 husband's name. Mr Hedges' initial thought was that 4 she had had a stroke but on taking her to the hospital 5 it turned out this was not the case. The doctor 6 seemed to think she had suffered some form of mental 7 episode. Mr Hedges told the doctors about the deep 8 trauma both of them had endured with regard to the 9 Post Office and his conviction. They both needed to 10 be very strong to get through all the upset and worry 11 and possibly now that they believe that they are in 12 calmer waters, Mr Hedges believes his wife may have 13 allowed her mind to relax and perhaps it had gone too 14 far. 15 He says she appears to be getting better but has 16 no memory of about five or six hours on that Monday. 17 She's now received a formal diagnosis and has been 18 diagnosed with transient global amnesia. This 19 condition can be brought on by stress, even through 20 events which occurred many years ago and which have 21 now eased. 22 Mr Hedges described the mental toll which 23 followed the audit in 2010 as crippling. He wants to 24 say to the Inquiry that he believes that all of those 25 impacted by Horizon have in common that the experience 113 1 has left them scarred for life. 2 MS DELLA ROBINSON, summary read by MS PATRICK 3 MS PATRICK: Sir, we're going to move now to the summary 4 of the evidence of Ms Della Robinson. 5 Dela Robinson was subpostmistress at the 6 Dukinfield Post Office from 27 January 2006 to 7 27 February 2012 when her contract was terminated. 8 She and her partner had bought the premises and 9 the Post Office. She said she was given very basic 10 training which she felt was mostly inadequate or 11 irrelevant. 12 At first Ms Robinson noticed some mistakes 13 occurring for small amounts of money usually £10 or 14 £20. She became confident and challenged these 15 figures as wrong. She would ring the helpline about 16 twice a week for the first three years and she says 17 they were pleasant but not effective. Ms Robinson can 18 recall one time when she returned from holiday to find 19 that there was a shortfall of £36,000. After 20 investigating it fully, it transpired that the 21 shortfall was only £500. 22 In 2010 they experienced a further shortfall of 23 around £1,500 which she couldn't sort out and 24 Ms Robinson came to an agreement with the Post Office 25 that she would pay this back at £500 per month out of 114 1 her salary, her wage, even though it was not her 2 fault. She found this very frustrating and it made 3 her quite angry. 4 On 24 January 2012 Ms Robinson was visited by an 5 auditor. She was sick at the time and so she was not 6 working, but she received a call to go to the shop and 7 to her amazement it was closed. She describes it as 8 complete chaos. The auditor from the Post Office 9 informed her that they had been counting cash and had 10 calculated a shortfall of £15,500. Ms Robinson 11 recounted it all and the shortfall had risen to 12 £17,000. She was suspended straight away and was not 13 allowed back into the Post Office from that point. 14 She felt as though her world had been turned upside 15 down. The whole experience was awful. 16 She was interviewed on 9 February 2012. She 17 received a letter from the Post Office dated 18 27 February 2012 confirming they would terminate her 19 contract. She was charged with false accounting and 20 theft of a sum in the region of £17,000 and she was 21 initially sent to Ashton Magistrates' Court after 22 receiving a summons. 23 At court, she was told that if she pleaded 24 guilty to false accounting then they would drop the 25 theft charges. Ms Robinson then went to a plea 115 1 hearing, again at Ashton Magistrates, when she was 2 advised by her barrister to fight the case at the 3 Crown Court. She remembers she was told by the 4 Post Office that if she pleaded guilty to false 5 accounting they would not pursue her for the money and 6 would drop the theft charge. Ms Robinson then chose 7 to do this. 8 On 12 December 2012 she pleaded guilty to false 9 accounting. On 18 January 2013 she attended 10 Manchester Crown Court for sentencing. She remembers 11 the solicitors and barristers all spoke amongst 12 themselves and then she was sentenced to 180 hours of 13 community service. She also had to pay £5,000 in 14 legal costs. 15 On 23 April 2021 Ms Robinson's conviction was 16 overturned by the Court of Appeal. 17 Ms Robinson says the stress of the whole 18 experience exacerbated her pre-existing epilepsy. 19 She's now registered disabled and this has resulted in 20 her losing her driving licence. Ms Robinson says she 21 would suffer with nightmares where she relived the 22 experience. She said she put on large amounts of 23 weight, she lost her confidence, her independence, and 24 she's developed depression. She says she was able to 25 manage her epilepsy before this. 116 1 To go from the Post Office being something she 2 believed was giving her her confidence back and a new 3 lease of life and then to have it all taken away from 4 her was, she says, heart-breaking. 5 She feels now she can't move forward. She says 6 she has suffered from financial hardship as a result 7 of the Post Office's actions and also suffered from 8 a health perspective. She's been diagnosed with 9 prolonged duress stress disorder. She has been 10 recommended to have 20 sessions of psychological 11 therapy, which she is currently undergoing. 12 She feels that it isn't just her who's been 13 affected by her conviction. Ms Robinson's son, she 14 says, became more introverted. He was worried what 15 people thought. She felt more for what her husband 16 had lost. She says he put their whole life into them. 17 It was his baby as he had done everything toward 18 achieving this. Following her conviction, they had 19 a rental property repossessed. They now have 20 a mortgage. They are in arrears, and living week by 21 week. 22 When they found a buyer for the Post Office, the 23 Post Office said no and this fell through. It has 24 devastated her to see that her husband's efforts had 25 all been for nothing. 117 1 MRS ALLISON HENDERSON, summary read by MS PATRICK 2 MS PATRICK: We move next to the summary of the evidence 3 of Mrs Allison Henderson. 4 Ms Allison Henderson was subpostmaster at the 5 Worstead Post Office from 1997 until 23 February 2010 6 when she resigned. In the early 2000s the Horizon 7 software was introduced to her Post Office. For 8 several years, she had difficulty in using the Horizon 9 system and often struggled to balance the accounts it 10 showed. She spoke to the helpline and the area 11 manager to seek guidance. From 2006 onward, balances 12 were regularly wrong. 13 The first time that Mrs Henderson ever saw an 14 error notice on the Horizon system was in 2006. The 15 system generated a shortfall of £1,500 and the 16 Post Office required her to pay that shortfall. 17 However, a while later the system generated another 18 loss of £2,000. The shortfalls kept coming and 19 Mrs Henderson could not afford to cover the amount. 20 On 10 February 2010, two auditors attended 21 Mrs Henderson's Post Office. She was hopeful that 22 they would be able to sort out any balancing 23 difficulties. She was shocked when they advised her 24 that there was a shortfall of £18,000. They then 25 returned to her a couple of hours later to say that 118 1 that amount had reduced to £11,957.78. Mrs Henderson 2 was told that she could not reopen the Post Office and 3 that she would be suspended. 4 On 22 February 2010, Mrs Henderson received 5 a letter stating that they were considering 6 terminating her contract. She spoke to her local 7 representative at the National Federation of 8 SubPostmasters and on his advice she decided she had 9 no option other than to resign, which she did on 10 23 February 2010. 11 This is a decision which Mrs Henderson says she 12 has since regretted. She was summoned to a meeting 13 with Post Office. She was allowed to bring her 14 Federation rep but he was not allowed to speak during 15 the interview. The two men conducting the interview 16 are described by Mrs Henderson as total bullies. 17 Mrs Henderson was under the impression that the 18 purpose of the meeting was to discover where she or 19 the system had gone wrong but all they did, she says, 20 was accuse her of theft. 21 She recalls they marched her to the car park to 22 take a look at her cheap Proton car to see if it was 23 worthy of being a "recovery asset". She was 24 subsequently charged with theft and false accounting. 25 Criminal proceedings were brought against her and her 119 1 case was transferred from the Magistrates' Court to 2 Norwich Crown Court. She recalls she had never felt 3 so scared and alone in her life. 4 Her solicitor and barrister provided her with 5 legal advice and advised her to take a plea bargain of 6 false accounting with the Post Office dropping the 7 theft charge. Mrs Henderson felt pressurised into 8 accepting this. She says she could not face going to 9 prison, "... for something that I had not done". She 10 was desperate to avoid spending any time in prison 11 whatsoever. 12 She therefore very reluctantly accepted a plea 13 bargain. With the prospect of a custodial sentence 14 hanging over Mrs Henderson she says she felt she had 15 no choice. As part of the plea bargain she recalls 16 she was told not to mention to the court anything 17 about the Horizon system. She recalls she questioned 18 this, she queried it as unfair with her barrister and 19 he says that's the way it works. 20 The judge adjourned the hearing and ordered her 21 to pay the alleged shortfall before the case returned 22 to court for sentencing. Mrs Henderson returned for 23 sentencing on 15 December 2010 and was given 200 hours 24 of community service and ordered to pay court costs of 25 £1,400. She also paid her own lawyer's fees which 120 1 totalled £7,000. Mrs Henderson felt so ashamed and 2 embarrassed about past events, "... when I have always 3 known that I have done nothing wrong." 4 The mental anguish she says has taken its toll 5 on her and still does. She says: 6 "Being accused of something that you have not 7 done is always a horrible feeling but for it to result 8 in a criminal conviction, the loss of my job and 9 livelihood is something that I think I will never be 10 able to get over." 11 Mrs Henderson says she did not attend her GP 12 about how she was feeling at that time that it was all 13 being investigated as she still lived in the village 14 too. She just tried to keep it to herself and not 15 talk about it. She thinks now she should have 16 obtained some professional help and she still needs 17 some professional assistance with the feelings which 18 she has had from when the problems with Horizon 19 started and which still continue today. 20 The whole affair, she says, has had 21 a detrimental effect on her health and on her family. 22 She's felt very low in mood, she breaks down in tears 23 and she still lacks confidence. She's completed 24 a course of CBT treatment which she's found helpful 25 but she wants to say to the Inquiry that she feels 121 1 that this is something that will never fully leave 2 her. 3 Before this whole affair she says she was 4 regarded as a pillar of society and got heavily 5 involved in the community. Mrs Henderson's husband, 6 she says, had to give up his position as Chairman of 7 the Parish Council to protect the integrity of the 8 council. They moved out of the area in 2016 which 9 resulted in them losing contact with a lot of their 10 friends. However, this was a move that they felt they 11 simply had to make. 12 Their friends and neighbours in their new area 13 knew nothing of the Post Office saga until after 14 Mrs Henderson's conviction was quashed at the Court of 15 Appeal on 23 April 2021. She says it was a saga in 16 her life she wanted to shut away from people. 17 Mrs Henderson and her husband, she says, had kept 18 everything from their grandchildren until her 19 conviction was quashed. They were doing this to 20 protect them and to avoid any stigma being passed on 21 to them. 22 She says speaking about what happened to her 23 still upsets her and reduces her to tears, as it does 24 her grandchildren when they speak of these events. 25 MR HASMUKH SHINGADIA, summary read by MS PATRICK 122 1 MS PATRICK: We move next to the summary of the evidence 2 of Hasmukh Shingadia. 3 Mr Shingadia and his wife got married in 1996. 4 He took over the Upper Buckleberry Post Office on 5 27 October 1998. He remembers having to submit 6 a business plan to the Post Office and he had to apply 7 for a loan to buy the shop. 8 The Post Office had a flat upstairs which was 9 one of the reasons why Mr Shingadia chose that 10 business. He thinks he and his wife paid around 11 £57,000 and they took a commercial loan out of 12 £40,000. They paid £17,000 themselves and then £7,000 13 for stock plus legal costs. He says his problems 14 usually arose on a Wednesday after balancing. 15 Initially he didn't have any idea what these losses 16 might be attributed to. 17 If there was a small shortfall, for example, 18 a couple of pounds, he would put the money into the 19 system or take it out if the system was over or under. 20 But when the discrepancies began to get larger, 21 Mr Shingadia contacted the helpline. They would take 22 him through the process and tell him the money would 23 turn up the next week. He remembers receiving error 24 notices on the system in 2009 or 2010. He didn't 25 speak to the managers because he says it was hard to 123 1 get through to them. He did have a Federation 2 representative in Farnham but he says every time he 3 calling him he was out in India. He says this was 4 very annoying but also meant, he says, he had no 5 support. 6 Mr Shingadia had an unannounced audit on 7 26 March 2010 when two auditors arrived at his 8 Post Office. Due to the problems with the system, he 9 was aware at this stage that the discrepancies were 10 around £16,000. On 11 May 2010 he was interviewed at 11 Newbury sorting office and then charged with theft and 12 false accounting. Mr Shingadia could not pay the 13 large shortfall discovered on the audit and he had to 14 borrow from his brother and his wife's sister. He 15 thought that if he repaid the money that would be the 16 end of the matter. 17 Mr Shingadia was told that he could receive 18 a custodial sentence so on the advice of his 19 barrister, he pleaded guilty to false accounting. He 20 pleaded guilty to a single count of false accounting 21 on 21 July 2011 at Oxford Crown Court. He was 22 sentenced to 8 months' imprisonment suspended for 12 23 months and ordered to carry out 200 hours of unpaid 24 work. He paid the court costs of £2,269.69 and the 25 legal fees of solicitors and barristers. Mr Shingadia 124 1 says he was very stressed, anxious, and worried, 2 "... and my mental health began to suffer". 3 His wife also worked full-time at the shop and 4 her income was affected too. He worried who would 5 look after his wife and his family if he was in 6 prison. He knew the impact on his wife and daughters 7 would be massive. He says his wife is severely 8 dyslexic and he didn't want her to be stuck without 9 him and two young daughters to look after. 10 He says he could not sleep at night. He could 11 not eat and he felt worthless and hopeless. One time 12 he says he went to the local graveyard and 13 contemplated taking his own life. He says he felt 14 there was no point in going on and he considered ways 15 to end his life. 16 In 2007 they bought a house in Leicester so that 17 they could move there on retirement to be nearer to 18 relatives. This was repossessed when Mr Shingadia 19 could not keep up the mortgage payments. He says this 20 was both embarrassing but also upsetting as this was 21 intended for his retirement. 22 His conviction also very much had an effect on 23 the village. At first the Post Office closed while he 24 was suspended. He felt a duty to the village as there 25 had been a post office in that village for 100 years. 125 1 They approached the landlord in 2008 and asked if he 2 would sell the freehold property to them and in 2009 3 they started negotiations. When they lost the 4 Post Office after his conviction, they lost the 5 freehold. The landlord gave them three months' notice 6 to vacate. Mr Shingadia pleaded with him and 7 eventually he agreed to let them stay. 8 Following his conviction Mr Shingadia resigned 9 from the position of magistrate at the local court and 10 as well his position as a freemason. Four years ago 11 Mr Shingadia had major surgery for a trigeminal 12 neuralgia. Prior to that, he was struggling because 13 of severe pain on the right side of his head and face 14 and an inability to eat. He believes this was caused 15 or contributed to by the situation he found himself 16 in. 17 He has some link to Kate Middleton's family who 18 lived in the village. When the media discovered that 19 and they were able to link that and his conviction to 20 the area, Mr Shingadia and his family were also 21 further bullied because they had attended the Royal 22 wedding in 2011. His younger daughter who was around 23 12 years old at the time got picked on and called 24 racist names on her way to and from school. She was 25 bullied by other children. They would say things 126 1 along the lines of "Your Dad is Paki thief". 2 The Court of Appeal quashed Mr Shingadia's 3 conviction on 19 July 2021. He called his wife over 4 and they all burst into tears. 5 Although his conviction has now been quashed 6 nothing can undo what he's been through or the impact 7 which it has had on him and his family. 8 He wants the Inquiry to know he still suffers 9 from the trauma of what has happened and that it has 10 had a significant impact on his mental health and 11 emotional well-being. It has also affected his wife's 12 mental health and when his conviction was quashed and 13 it was all in the media again, this brought everything 14 back to her. 15 Mr Shingadia wants to say that he is so grateful 16 to his wife for standing by him. His mental health 17 problems began when he was accused of dishonesty, and 18 he says they continue to this day. 19 Mr Shingadia started treatment on 20 25 November 2021 and he says until it has been 21 completed and he recovers he feels the whole thing 22 "... is still hanging over me". He believes the 23 Post Office knew from day 1 that there was a problem 24 with the system and he wants to say to the Inquiry 25 what is sad is that management sat and watched 127 1 innocent people going to prison, losing their 2 livelihoods and losing their loved ones and did 3 nothing. 4 MR DAVID YATES, summary read by MS PATRICK 5 MS PATRICK: We move next to the summary of the evidence 6 of Mr David Yates. 7 Mr David Yates began working as a counter clerk 8 at the Walton on Thames branch of the Post Office in 9 1979. He progressed to branch manager. When the 10 Post Office decided to close the branch as a Crown 11 office he was offered the job of subpostmaster in 12 1993. 13 Horizon was installed and about six to seven 14 months later he experienced shortfalls. Initially, he 15 repaid these himself. He had paid out, he says, 16 around £6,000 to the Post Office by March 2003. In 17 March 2003, the Post Office carried out an audit. The 18 auditors told Mr Yates there was a shortfall of 19 £366,788.67. He told the auditors they would find the 20 shortfall accumulated over years due to the system. 21 He was told no-one else was having problems with the 22 system. 23 Mr Yates was suspended the day after the 24 investigation from his job as a subpostmaster. In 25 April/May 2003, he received a summons to attend 128 1 Staines Magistrates' Court. He was charged with 2 theft, false accounting, and breach of trust. 3 Following legal advice Mr Yates pleaded guilty to all 4 the charges. He was told he could face 5 to 8 years 5 in prison if he was found guilty at trial. 6 Mr Yates says he was petrified. To hopefully 7 receive a more lenient sentence he pleaded guilty. He 8 was sentenced to three years in prison. On hearing 9 the sentence Mr Yates remembers it as a blur. His 10 wife collapsed and his family were very upset. He 11 commenced his sentence on 31 October 2003 and remained 12 imprisoned until December 2004. 13 Whilst he was in prison the Post Office wrote to 14 say they would be taking, he says, they would be 15 taking our home to pay for the shortfalls at the 16 branch. His wife opened that letter. A Proceeds of 17 Crime Act application incurred further legal fees. 18 Upon his release Mr Yates was given an 19 electronic tag which was not removed until April 2005. 20 Mr Yates' conviction was not overturned until 21 April 2021. Mr Yates' mortgage payment following his 22 conviction increased from £350 per month to 23 approximately £700 per month. His house insurance 24 premium also increased. 25 On sentencing, Mr Yates recalls being taken in 129 1 the van to High Down Prison in Surrey, which is 2 a category B prison. He says he was locked in a cell 3 with two other men for 22 hours a day. 4 He recalls he witnessed various violent 5 incidents between prisoners. He was only supposed to 6 spend a few weeks in this high security prison. 7 However, because of difficulties with his transfer he 8 spent three months at High Down. In the last few 9 weeks before his transfer, he was moved to a single 10 cell where he spent Christmas and New Year. In 11 January 2004 Mr Yates was transferred to an open 12 prison on the Isle of Sheppey. By October 2004 he was 13 informed that he would be released over the following 14 few months. 15 He says, following his conviction Mr Yates says 16 his parents had to endure significant and sustained 17 ill-will from the local community and he didn't think 18 that was fair. He says his health has suffered 19 immensely. He collapsed in 2013 and was taken to 20 hospital because he was working too much. 21 He wants the Inquiry to know that the 22 overturning of his conviction has had a huge impact on 23 his mental health. He became very anxious and 24 suffered with panic attacks. He lost weight, his mood 25 was low and he felt depressed. 130 1 He had several episodes in relation to his heart 2 and acute breathlessness. He has lost interest in 3 food and in life in general. He's been told he 4 developed an acute decompensation in his mental health 5 at the time of the Appeal Court hearing in April 2021. 6 At the time he was suffering adjustment disorder with 7 mixed anxiety and depressed mood. Since, he has begun 8 to feel much more positive and his mental health 9 issues have begun to subside. 10 He wants to tell the Inquiry that the whole 11 situation has been very hard on him and his family. 12 Before his conviction he was heavily involved in his 13 children's rugby and netball teams. Afterwards he had 14 to stand on the sidelines. 15 He was a pillar of the community before this 16 happened. Now he says people avoid talking to him in 17 the street. He says it breaks his heart. 18 Finally, he would like the Inquiry to know that 19 he is deeply saddened that his parents passed away 20 before his conviction was overturned. 21 MR VIPINCHANDRA PATEL, summary read by MS PATRICK 22 MS PATRICK: We move now, Chair, to the summary of the 23 evidence of Mr Vipin Patel and that's full name 24 Mr Vipinchandra Patel. He's known as Vipin so I'm 25 going to use that in reading the summary of his 131 1 evidence. 2 Vipin Patel is of Gujarati Indian heritage. He 3 was born in Uganda and lived there until his family 4 moved to the UK when he was 18 as a result of the 5 political situation in Uganda. He has been married 6 for 35 years and has two children. 7 He first started working for the Post Office in 8 1987 as a postal officer on the branch office counter. 9 Over an initial 15 years he progressed to assistant 10 manager, and then to acting branch manager. Together 11 with his wife, he purchased Horspath Post Office, 12 along with the connected village store and apartment. 13 He became subpostmaster of Horspath Post Office in 14 January 2002. 15 He financed this purchase through a mortgage and 16 by renting out their property in London as 17 a supplementary source of income. Mr Patel had 18 a great sense of pride in this role as his grandfather 19 and uncle had been postmasters in India. He had 20 a great admiration for the Post Office but, between 21 2008 and 2010, he had shortfalls. 22 By 2009 he had paid around £10,000 in 23 shortfalls. In January and June 2010 he found 24 shortfalls of 15,000 and 24,000. Following an audit 25 of the branch in December 2010 a significant shortfall 132 1 was found of 34,673.87. His contract was terminated 2 and he was charged with fraud. He pleaded guilty 3 following advice and was convicted and given an 4 18-week prison sentence suspended for 12 months, 5 a two-month curfew order and ordered to pay £200 in 6 court costs. 7 The shortfalls shown by the Horizon system were 8 covered by him at significant personal cost. He had 9 to cash in his Royal Mail pension and cash in 10 investments. He had to sell his wife's jewellery 11 which had been passed down through three generations. 12 This was very hurtful and he says it can never be 13 replaced. 14 The shop declined due to the loss of the 15 Post Office and the reputational damage which followed 16 his conviction. His wife has had to run the business 17 with his limited assistance. They own the shop and 18 still live in the flat above, but the Post Office has 19 been closed since 2011. 20 Mr Patel goes on to talk about the impacts on 21 his health. He suffered, he says, very low mood and 22 from suicidal thoughts and was prescribed 23 antidepressants. He suffered from panic attacks and 24 developed a phobia of touching money. He was made, he 25 says, to feel like a fraudster and a thief. He wants 133 1 the Inquiry to know that these thoughts persist in his 2 mind all the time. 3 His physical health has also deteriorated. He 4 has been diagnosed with fibromyalgia and is physically 5 disabled. He goes on to speak about the impact upon 6 him, following his conviction, in the community. 7 Following conviction, he says he was shunned by the 8 local community and was subject to verbal abuse, 9 including racial abuse. 10 His relationship with his wife has been impacted 11 and his family have been constantly concerned about 12 his welfare. He knows his wife often cries when he is 13 not around. 14 He wants the Inquiry to know his children have 15 also had extremely humiliating experiences. Mr Patel 16 states that despite his conviction now being 17 overturned, the Post Office has ruined his life. He 18 says he's been diagnosed with post traumatic stress 19 disorder and told that that will likely continue for 20 the rest of his life. 21 He has been told by a spinal surgeon that he's 22 likely to become paralysed. 23 Mr Patel says he always knew Horizon was 24 responsible for what happened but he says he was never 25 listened to. He wants the Inquiry to know he trusted 134 1 the Post Office and thought he worked for -- and this 2 is his words -- "one of the most iconic, historic, and 3 pioneering institutions on the planet which helped 4 develop mankind over centuries". Instead, he says, 5 they were deceitful and deceptive. 6 Sir, I know that you understand this first 7 tranche of summaries there are two further summaries 8 to read. They are of a similar length to those that 9 we've read so far. 10 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: We are in your hands. If you would 11 like to complete it this afternoon I think that 12 completes your part, so to speak. 13 MS PATRICK: Sir. 14 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: We are very happy to finish this 15 afternoon if you prefer. If you want to have a break 16 and try and fit it in tomorrow that's fine. 17 MS PATRICK: Sir, I'm very happy to continue or to stop. 18 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I think it will probably take up to say 19 ten minutes so I think we're happy just to finish 20 now -- so I mean to carry on to finish. 21 MS PATRICK: Indeed. Let's continue. I continue with the 22 summary of the evidence of Mr Robert Ambrose. 23 MR ROBERT AMBROSE, summary read by MS PATRICK 24 MS PATRICK: Mr Ambrose acquired the High Wych Post Office 25 on 5 May 2010. Prior to this, he and his business 135 1 partner owned a financial advice company giving 2 mortgage and property advice. They were both 3 regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. 4 They were approached by somebody who was looking 5 to sell their Post Office and they both thought -- 6 they bought it and moved their financial advice 7 company to the same premises. Mr Ambrose's conviction 8 was overturned by the Court of Appeal on 19 July 2021. 9 He says he immediately knew of issues with 10 Horizon as the number of shortfalls were high, as were 11 the amounts. He said he expected that there would be 12 some minor shortfalls in terms of short change but the 13 amounts were sometimes huge and unexplained. He says 14 he was continually on the helpline for Horizon but 15 they denied any issues with the system. 16 The way the Post Office worked was that it was 17 black or it was white. They denied there were issues 18 in the system and said that Mr Ambrose was responsible 19 for any shortfalls. He said he would constantly live 20 in fear waiting for the auditors or for the police to 21 come as, despite his pleas, the Post Office refused to 22 accept that there were issues within the system. 23 An auditor came to the Post Office on 24 9 February 2012. The auditor managed to find 25 discrepancies and they suspended Mr Ambrose and closed 136 1 the Post Office straight away. At the police station, 2 Mr Ambrose was charged with theft and false 3 accounting. 4 On 24 September 2012 he appeared at St Albans 5 Crown Court to answer the charges. He was given the 6 opportunity to plead guilty and avoid a custodial 7 sentence. He took it as he desperately wanted to 8 avoid going to prison. 9 On 28 October 2012, again at St Albans Crown 10 Court, he was sentenced to an 18-month prison sentence 11 suspended for two years and 250 unpaid hours of 12 community service. 13 At the time of his arrest, he was a director of 14 a regulated financial services company and a financial 15 adviser. This was taken away along with any 16 possibility of working as a qualified financial 17 adviser again. He lost the ability to earn an income 18 through this means. Mr Ambrose then, and still, works 19 in employed roles significantly below his experience, 20 knowledge, skills, and capability. He had to leave 21 one of these jobs after a colleague found an internet 22 article regarding his conviction which led to again 23 him being signed off as unfit for work for six months 24 due to recurring anxiety and depression. 25 His experience has significantly affected his 137 1 income as Mr Ambrose was a qualified and experienced 2 financial adviser. Following on from the accusation 3 of fraud and false accounting he became depressed and 4 anxious and had to start on medication. 5 He says he became completely withdrawn and 6 couldn't deal with things in the same way. He says he 7 began drinking excessively and wasn't looking after 8 himself. He wants the Inquiry to know that he was in 9 a very bad place mentally. He was no longer working 10 as due to his mental health issues he was declared 11 unfit for work. He ended up losing his whole 12 livelihood. 13 In addition, after the audit and the impending 14 arrest, Mr Ambrose's relationship broke down with his 15 partner who he had lived with and he moved out almost 16 immediately meaning he also lost his home. He says he 17 just wasn't the same person anymore. Not only did 18 people feel they could not trust him but he felt he 19 couldn't trust anyone else. He grew tired, he says, 20 of repeating the same story over and over again. The 21 impression was that people just thought he was guilty. 22 He says he lost everything overnight. 23 He wants the Inquiry to know that money and 24 property and business is one thing but losing your 25 reputation and dignity is another. Having to question 138 1 the way you feel about yourself and being constantly 2 in a state of self-doubt is something Mr Ambrose says 3 he hopes never to experience again. 4 He wants the Inquiry to know that now his 5 conviction has been quashed he is hoping that he can 6 move on with his life again. But he says it's 7 difficult to move on after the last ten years. 8 The last summary for today is the summary of the 9 evidence of Mrs Gail Lesley Ward. 10 MRS GAIL LESLEY WARD, summary read by MS PATRICK 11 MS PATRICK: Mrs Gail Lesley Ward is 61 years old and 12 lives with her husband and their dogs. She and her 13 husband have three children who have all moved out. 14 At the time of her conviction her youngest son was 15 13 years old and still at school. Mrs Ward first 16 worked for the Post Office when she was 35 years old 17 at the branch in Swanage. She became branch manager 18 there in 1999. In June 2002, she saw the Priory Road 19 Post Office in Wells Somerset for sale online. She 20 had been looking for a suitable post office and the 21 branch also had a property for her and her family to 22 live in. When she became subpostmaster at Priory Road 23 she had already been trained on Horizon. 24 Her husband worked with her in the shop for the 25 first two years of their ownership and he received 139 1 on-site training for Horizon when they opened. 2 At first, she didn't notice any issues with 3 Horizon. At the first audit conducted on her branch 4 they were only a few pence out. However, Mrs Ward 5 noticed significant problems beginning towards the end 6 of 2005. She reported these issues to the Post Office 7 but was simply told to make good any shortfalls shown 8 by Horizon. She says she continually phoned the 9 helpline to try to manage the errors in the system and 10 on some occasions she was left in tears. 11 An audit was conducted in January 2007 which she 12 was very nervous for as she was aware that there were 13 shortfalls showing on Horizon. By this time, she was 14 continually paying money back into the Post Office to 15 cover the shortfalls. She says that she recalls this 16 was hundreds of pounds every week. However, she was 17 relieved that they could now be fixed. Sadly, this 18 was not the case. 19 During the audit, Mrs Ward says she was told to 20 go upstairs until they finished. She recalls not 21 knowing what was going on. She says instead of 22 helping her make the system right, she was blamed for 23 the shortfalls. Mrs Ward recalls: 24 "I was told that following the audit they found 25 a shortfall of £12,030.70." 140 1 She says she couldn't stop crying. She was told 2 to sign something but she was so upset and was crying 3 and she had no idea what it was she was signing. She 4 was informed that she had been suspended on the spot. 5 Her keys were taken from her. 6 The Post Office investigation continued and she 7 was interviewed twice. Mrs Ward says of the 8 interviews: 9 "The interviews were degrading and I felt that 10 nobody believed me." 11 She was interviewed on 12 January 2007 but she 12 does not recall when she was interviewed on the second 13 occasion. She remembers she told the interviewers 14 that she couldn't explain the shortages that were 15 alleged. She says she did seek some support from the 16 Federation prior to the interviews but she says they 17 refused to help her. 18 She says they told her simply -- "they simply 19 told me to let them know how I got on". 20 She says: 21 "It was as if they didn't believe me either. 22 The Federation was supposed to be our union to back 23 our corner but they failed me also." 24 Mrs Ward says that she was told that paying back 25 the alleged shortfall amount would help her case. She 141 1 recalls that the auditor told her that if he was 2 a gambling man putting the money right would prevent 3 this from going further. She says she asked friends 4 and family to help her cover the £12,000 within a week 5 of her suspension. She wants the Inquiry to know she 6 recalls asking for money from people was mortifying. 7 At the second interview, she was hoping she 8 would be reinstated by the Post Office. Instead, on 9 22 March 2007 they wrote to Mrs Ward terminating her 10 contract. Despite an appeal the position remained the 11 same. Mrs Ward says of this: 12 "They wouldn't listen to me. Despite me stating 13 that there were still financial shortfalls at the same 14 Post Office, even after I had stopped working there." 15 Mrs Ward instructed a barrister and a solicitor 16 to represent her at the Crown Court at Bristol on 17 15 October 2007. In court, the Post Office told her 18 that they would drop the theft charge and she wouldn't 19 go to prison if she pleaded guilty to false 20 accounting. 21 Mrs Ward says: 22 "I had no choice but to accept this and 23 I pleaded guilty to four counts of false accounting." 24 She was given an order to pay £500 in 25 prosecution costs and to undertake 150 hours of unpaid 142 1 work. After the conviction, she tried to sell the 2 shop and the Post Office. She had a buyer approved by 3 the Post Office. However, the Post Office then closed 4 the branch and the buyer pulled out. She lost all her 5 salary from the Post Office and as they had no money 6 to stock the shop, they lost that too. 7 Mrs Ward and her husband had mounting debts and 8 she tried to sell personal items at car boot sales 9 just to have enough money to buy food. She says, and 10 she wants the Inquiry to know, she was completely 11 traumatised throughout the criminal proceedings and 12 she was terrified, especially when she was told that 13 she could receive a custodial sentence. She says: 14 "On the day before the final hearing, my 15 solicitor told me to pack a bag and I had to say 16 goodbye by 13-year old son in case I was unable to 17 come back home following the hearing. It was 18 heart-breaking and I had no idea what would happen." 19 She recalls collapsing in the dock when she 20 received the sentence from the court, and she had to 21 be helped out by her husband. She says: 22 "It was a relief I could go home to my children 23 but I still had a criminal conviction to deal with, 24 along with the financial difficulties I had to face." 25 Mrs Ward says she knew her conviction was wrong. 143 1 She was innocent and had tried everything she could to 2 make things right, even at her own financial expense. 3 As a result of these financial expenses, she was 4 forced to declare bankruptcy. 5 After her conviction, she became socially 6 withdrawn. She says people would be gossipping and 7 saying "there's no smoke without fire". She now 8 struggles with trusting people and says she has no 9 confidence socially. 10 As to her health, Mrs Ward started developing 11 chest pain which was put down to anxiety. She says 12 she used to be a positive person but now only sees 13 things in a negative light. She wants the Inquiry to 14 know: 15 "We lost everything." 16 She stresses: 17 "The fact that the Post Office was aware of the 18 issues with Horizon, yet criminalised their staff, is 19 something that will always make me very angry and 20 distressed." 21 She says since her conviction was quashed, she 22 can now start looking people in the eye again and she 23 says she is no longer a criminal. She wants the 24 Inquiry to know that her memories of this experience 25 will always stay with her. Finally, she says the 144 1 Post Office prosecution and conviction ruined 2 everything she worked so hard for. 3 Thank you, sir. 4 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Right, so is it 10.00 in the morning, 5 Ms Hodge? Very well. 10.00 tomorrow morning. 6 (4.43 pm) 7 (Adjourned until 10.00 am the following day) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 145 1 I N D E X 2 WENDY BUFFREY (affirmed) .........................2 3 Questioned by MS KENNEDY .........................2 4 TIMOTHY BRENTNALL (affirmed) ....................29 5 Questioned by MS KENNEDY ........................29 6 MR ANTHONY GANT, summary read by MS .............51 PATRICK 7 MRS AMANDA BARBER, summary read by MS ...........56 8 PATRICK 9 MR NORMAN BARBER, summary read by MS ............59 PATRICK 10 MARK FRANCIS BRIAN KELLY (sworn) ................64 11 Questioned by MS HODGE ..........................64 12 MS CARINA PRICE, summary read by MS ............106 13 PATRICK 14 MR DAVID THOMAS HEDGES, summary read by MS .....110 PATRICK 15 MS DELLA ROBINSON, summary read by MS ..........114 16 PATRICK 17 MRS ALLISON HENDERSON, summary read by MS ......118 PATRICK 18 MR HASMUKH SHINGADIA, summary read by MS .......122 19 PATRICK 20 MR DAVID YATES, summary read by MS PATRICK .....128 21 MR VIPINCHANDRA PATEL, summary read by MS ......131 PATRICK 22 MR ROBERT AMBROSE, summary read by MS ..........135 23 PATRICK 24 MRS GAIL LESLEY WARD, summary read by MS .......139 PATRICK 25 146