1 Friday, 11 March 2022 2 (10.00 am) 3 Focus Group Session 3 4 FACILITATOR: Thank you all, first of all welcome to this 5 focus group, which sounds a bit formal but it is not 6 going to be a formal session in any sense. We want 7 your own views and experiences. You are joined on the 8 call by Sir Wyn Williams who I'll ask to introduce 9 himself in a moment and then I'll ask yourselves to 10 introduce yourself. 11 Just a little bit to say we have two hours in 12 which to cover an awful lot but we're here to listen 13 to what you've got to say. You won't hear an awful 14 lot from myself and Sir Wyn. Occasionally, I might 15 ask you to give way to another person in the room or 16 just to move on a little bit but, purely in the 17 interests of time -- that's not very likely to happen 18 but just so you know. 19 Before we get started, Sir Wyn, do you just want 20 to have a couple of quick words about your feelings at 21 the moment? 22 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes. First of all, of course, I would 23 like to thank the four of you for agreeing to 24 participate in this session. We have had two focus 25 group sessions so far and each of the sessions have 1 1 lasted the full two hours and probably would have 2 lasted longer if I had had the stamina to keep going. 3 So don't be afraid to say as much as you want, please, 4 because that's what I want to hear. As you know, this 5 is a public session so there may be a number of people 6 watching and listening but try to put that out of your 7 mind and concentrate on what it is you want me to 8 hear. 9 Most of the questions, insofar as they are 10 questions, will come from Jerome, but occasionally 11 I might intervene to ask a question of my own because 12 sometimes I like to get a detail straight in my head, 13 as I'm hearing things. 14 But I hope to be pretty silent and can I just 15 acknowledge that we have, with Ms Burke, our first 16 participant from Northern Ireland, I believe, so 17 that's very good and, in due course, I hope to visit 18 Northern Ireland to hear formal evidence but I'm very 19 glad we've got someone from that part of the 20 United Kingdom joining us today. 21 So with those few words, over to you, Jerome. 22 FACILITATOR: Thank you very much. So I will ask you all 23 to introduce yourselves, if that's okay, and I will 24 perhaps start with you, Sian, if that's okay, just to 25 tell us a little bit about yourself and your context 2 1 and perhaps if you could just tell us, in a couple of 2 sentences, what made you want to come and talk with us 3 today, if that's okay. 4 SIAN THOMAS: Hi, good morning, bore da. My name is Sian 5 Thomas, I'm Noel Thomas's daughter. Unfortunately, 6 16 years ago my father was one of the people that was 7 with the Horizon System and got sent to jail. I just 8 feel today on behalf of my family and myself that we 9 would like to put forward -- it just didn't, 10 unfortunately, affect my father, it has affected the 11 whole family, so that's why I asked today that I could 12 speak to Sir Wyn and yourself to give over what the 13 impact was on the family. 14 FACILITATOR: Thank you, Sian. You lived then and still 15 live on Anglesey, is that right? 16 SIAN THOMAS: That's correct, yes. I've never moved away. 17 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you very much. Nice to hear from 18 you, thank you. 19 Paul, perhaps if I could come to you and hear 20 a little bit about yourself and why you're here today. 21 PAUL BRANNLUND: Well, I have two careers. I was 25 years 22 a classroom teacher and then a senior teacher in 23 a large comprehensive school and my wife and I were 24 both teaching and we wanted a different challenge. So 25 we bought a post office in Cornwall in 1998 and ran it 3 1 until we retired in 2016. 2 And the reason I'm here is really because I have 3 heard so many of these sessions and I have heard what 4 happened to so many subpostmasters, I'm just one of 5 the lucky 10,000-plus subpostmasters that didn't end 6 up in trouble but paid for the consequences of Horizon 7 for years, and years, and years. So that's why I'm 8 here, to tell my story, which is slightly different. 9 FACILITATOR: Thank you for that, that's extremely useful 10 to hear. Thank you very much. 11 So, Wendy, could I come to you just to tell us 12 a little bit about yourself and your context. 13 WENDY BURKE: Yes, thank you. So Wendy Burke, as you have 14 heard, I'm from Northern Ireland. I live just outside 15 Belfast and I ran Dunmurray Post Office. My father 16 actually took over Dunmurray Post Office in 1976 so 17 I literally grew up with the Post Office in my blood. 18 I did qualify as a teacher and I taught for 19 five years and then I missed -- because I always 20 worked in the post office whenever I was growing up, 21 in my holidays, my days off, even on the days I wasn't 22 supposed to be off, sometimes, and I went and worked 23 in the bank after I taught. So I worked in the bank 24 for five years and then my father was thinking of 25 retiring, he was in his 70s, and he asked would I come 4 1 in and run the office, would I be interested in it or 2 would he sell it? 3 And I jumped at the chance, so I ran his office 4 then for 16 years. I left under NT in 2016 also and 5 I was out of work for four days and stepped into a 6 role in the Henderson Group, here in Northern Ireland, 7 which is Spar NI and they, at the time, had about 8 50 post offices. I started off a day a week and that 9 worked for a week. I then was full-time and I took on 10 a senior manager post with them. 11 So I had a good experience with them and 12 currently I'm working with network support in the 13 NFSP, so that's me. 14 FACILITATOR: Right, thank you. What would you say is the 15 main reason you have come to share your thoughts and 16 feelings today? 17 WENDY BURKE: So I think, historically, people have gone 18 through harrowing experiences. I have been listening 19 quite a bit, obviously, to the Inquiry and whenever 20 you listen to some of the stories it just really hits 21 home. I also want to see Post Office, government and 22 Fujitsu banged to rights. 23 FACILITATOR: Right, thank you. Thank you very much, 24 Wendy. 25 Finally to Carol. Do you want to introduce 5 1 yourself to the team? 2 CAROL CHARLTON: Hi, I'm Carol Charlton and I'm the wife 3 of Kim Whiley(?), who was one of the 555. 4 We both have a background in banking. Kim 5 worked for a bank for 20-odd years before she took on 6 the post office. I -- for the first seven years, 7 I worked for the Bank of England, so we both have 8 quite a financial background, which is why -- one of 9 the reasons we took on a post office. 10 I did the training with Kim. We decided that 11 she should be the subpostmaster but I worked alongside 12 her for quite a while until in 2010 money disappeared 13 from the computer system. 14 It has had a huge effect on our lives, 15 healthwise and, you know, members of the family and us 16 and that have both suffered. 17 The reason I have come here today is because 18 Kim's mum has been battling breast cancer for a long 19 time and died last week and I sort of feel I'm doing 20 this, sort of, because she would have wanted me to as 21 well. 22 FACILITATOR: Thank you. Well, thank you for being here, 23 to yourself and to all of you. 24 A couple of you mentioned that you have watched 25 some or part of the Public Inquiries and I know, Sian, 6 1 you have been at one. What we would like from you 2 today is Sir Wyn really wants to hear your own 3 perspective on things so those you of who are former 4 subpostmasters, we want to hear that point of view 5 and, obviously, those of you who are family members we 6 want to hear how it felt to be a loved one seeing them 7 go through this, so we appreciate there are different 8 perspectives and that's what Sir Wyn wants to hear 9 today. So, please, feel free to share that from that 10 point of view. 11 So the main -- we will cover several different 12 areas. We will look at how it all started, both in 13 the Post Office and the events. We will talk about 14 running a branch and your views of that from within it 15 and as a family member, but mainly we will be talking 16 about your experiences and feelings about working with 17 Post Office Limited and, obviously, the impact of all 18 of this on yourself and your families and things. So 19 that's the kind of broad structure but, as Sir Wyn 20 said before, I'm not going to do a lot of talking, 21 we're here to listen. 22 I would like to start out just about your sort 23 of feelings and experiences as you started in -- 24 obviously, some of you have been a long time. I just 25 wondered if you would trace it back to your own 7 1 involvement in this whole story. If you want, one of 2 you just wants to pick up how it all started for you 3 and your feelings at that time. 4 So perhaps if I start with you, Wendy, about 5 that, because obviously your family history goes back 6 a long way with the Post Office, probably the most out 7 of all of us here. 8 How do you see this story starting from your 9 point of view? 10 WENDY BURKE: Well, as you know, my father had it before 11 me. I took over in 1998, just pre-computerisation. 12 So, as you will know, I grew up -- well, I grew up in 13 the Troubles in Northern Ireland. We were very much 14 a community post office at that time. We were sitting 15 on a interface between two different communities. It 16 was difficult but, I mean, as you know, I was helping 17 in the post office at that time. My father wasn't 18 actually running it but we were the heart of that 19 community and we had people chatting in the queue that 20 outside might not have been chatting and that was 21 a very -- I'm very proud that that happened. 22 I thoroughly enjoyed -- when I took over 23 I thoroughly enjoyed running my branch. I've done the 24 manual balances with pen and paper and I have 25 obviously also worked with the Horizon System. 8 1 To be honest -- and I think I recollect somebody 2 else saying this -- it's not Post Office that's the 3 trusted brand, it is those people who are customer 4 facing, the postmasters and their staff. That's who 5 the community trust and that's who they come to, 6 whether it is for a little bit of advice, a cup of 7 tea, a little bit of reassurance. 8 So, as I say, I used both the manual accounting 9 and the computerisation. Manually, were there errors 10 made? Probably. Much easier to find because you were 11 the one that was inputting that information and you 12 had it all to hand. 13 My office was one of the first offices in the UK 14 to convert to the new computerisation system, which 15 I was quite excited about. I know that because we 16 were changing from manual benefit books to electronic 17 systems that we had to have computerisation, otherwise 18 Post Office, quite literally, would not be here now, 19 so there had to be a system that supported automation 20 as such. 21 As I was the first -- one of the early offices, 22 the two Post Office trainers that came, they were 23 lovely, they were totally out of their depth and they 24 even admitted that numerous times. There was nowhere 25 to turn to for help so you just really had to plough 9 1 on and learn the system yourself. Ringing the 2 helpline was no good because -- 3 FACILITATOR: We will come onto some of those issues of 4 operation then in a second. Just to come back to that 5 time then when you were about to make that transition 6 from the paper world to the computerised world, what 7 was your prevailing feeling, did you think, at that 8 time, looking back? 9 WENDY BURKE: Looking back I was really excited about it. 10 I knew it was going to be a challenge but I thought 11 that it was the right thing to do. It was something 12 that, as I say, we had to do, but little did we know 13 that it was going to be such a challenge. 14 FACILITATOR: Yes. 15 WENDY BURKE: It was going to take time to learn it and we 16 all knew that. My staff were very nervous about it 17 but I was obviously the postmaster and I had to take 18 it and embrace it because, otherwise, there was no 19 point really us even changing. 20 FACILITATOR: Right, okay, thank you. That's very clear, 21 thanks. 22 How about the rest of you? How would you trace 23 the sort of beginnings of these events? Perhaps Paul, 24 how do you see this sort of -- 25 PAUL BRANNLUND: Well, as I said just now, both my wife 10 1 and I were teaching and I think we both got to a point 2 in teaching where we were not sure where our careers 3 were going, so we made the decision to look to buy 4 a business. We didn't know what business. Many of 5 our family thought we were totally bonkers because, 6 obviously, we were giving up good salaries to go into 7 business. 8 We were very excited about it and we finally 9 found this post office in Cornwall, which we thought 10 had great potential. It was quite a laborious 11 exercise joining the Post Office. I mean, they put 12 you through all sorts of hoops, financial background, 13 criminal records, all sorts of things and it took 14 quite a long while, but it eventually came off, 15 although right at the time when we were going to 16 complete, the house sale fell through and we had all 17 sorts of complications. 18 Anyway, so we bought this post office in 19 Cornwall and it had quite a good salary, so that was 20 sort of a reason really because it was secure. The 21 shop itself was in its infancy then, so there wasn't 22 a lot of turnover, so the shop was a -- the 23 Post Office gave us a secure income and, as Wendy 24 said, we started off on the manual system with the old 25 paper and the weekly balances on the big blue sheets, 11 1 and that went on for about two years and that was 2 quite hard to learn. 3 But balancing was relatively -- as Wendy said, 4 really straightforward, because you could -- if you 5 had a shortage, you could look back over the week and 6 pretty much find it, or if you had sent it away you 7 knew that Chesterfield would send back a correction at 8 some time in the future. So it ticked over and 9 I guess our shortages under the old system were knock 10 for knock really, one week up and one week down, and 11 so on. 12 We were so -- I was really quite excited because 13 I was quite keen. I had taught IT in school so I was 14 quite keen on computers, so when Horizon arrived 15 I thought "This will make life easier". 16 FACILITATOR: Right. 17 PAUL BRANNLUND: But it didn't. I mean, to me, it was 18 a computer system that nobody who had ever worked 19 a Post Office counter had had any involvement in its 20 design. It was -- it wasn't user-friendly. It -- 21 I mean, a lot of computer systems you can pick up just 22 by familiarising yourself with the procedures and the 23 processes. Horizon wasn't like that, so it was 24 a challenge. 25 FACILITATOR: Right, thank you. 12 1 PAUL BRANNLUND: And it became more and more of 2 a challenge. 3 FACILITATOR: Right. We will come on to more of those 4 challenges in a second. 5 Were you based in Cornwall before you took on 6 the post office, by the way? 7 PAUL BRANNLUND: No, I'm Cornish born, so we were looking 8 for somewhere in the West Country. We were both 9 teaching in the Salisbury area, Andover area and we 10 were looking for somewhere west, and we looked in 11 Somerset and Dorset. It was the right business and it 12 proved to be. We stayed there 18 years and we did 13 very well, but, you know ... 14 FACILITATOR: Okay, thank you. I just wanted to check 15 that, so there was a degree of moving there. 16 So, Carol, do you want to -- where do you see 17 all this starting from your perspective? 18 CAROL CHARLTON: Well, Barclays Bank were doing 19 redundancies and Kim decided to take redundancy and we 20 were looking for a business. I was quite -- I was in 21 teaching as well, so I was quite keen to get out of 22 teaching at that time. I just needed something 23 different. 24 We looked at tea rooms, and things like this, 25 but my brother and his wife that had a post office and 13 1 they seemed quite happy doing it, so we looked around 2 for a post office. 3 We're from the North East of England. We found 4 a post office up at Winlaton, not the best area in the 5 world, no the worst area in the world, you know. 6 But -- and the post office was a lock-up, so, 7 basically, with the redundancy money and Kim sold her 8 house as well, we bought the post office and it was 9 quite a challenge at first, and that. 10 I kept doing part-time teaching just to keep 11 things ticking over and, again, we think of ourselves 12 as quite lucky because when all this blew up we -- we 13 didn't have to go down the bankruptcy route because 14 I went back to full-time teaching. 15 FACILITATOR: Right, okay. 16 CAROL CHARLTON: You know, but it was really tough on Kim, 17 it really was. She embedded herself as part of the 18 community, she loved having the elderly customers, in 19 particular. She just adored them and they adored her. 20 It was very, very hard when this happened. 21 We both had two days sort of training on the 22 Horizon System because this was 2013 -- no, 2003, 23 sorry, that we actually bought the post office and 24 Horizon had just sort of come in a few years ago, and 25 we had two days training at South Shields branch. 14 1 Very, very basic training. I mean, both of us have 2 been used to working in banks and had -- double entry 3 bookkeeping, you know, you always have dockets there 4 that represent every single transaction, that you can 5 look back on if you have put something in wrong, so 6 there was always an audit trail and with Horizon there 7 wasn't. 8 It just seemed to me, at the time, to be 9 a glorified till, you know, a till with little icons 10 on, basically. You didn't have to add the things up 11 or anything like this. But they did no training in 12 how to balance, how to correct errors, anything like 13 that, really. 14 FACILITATOR: To what -- although you were teaching 15 part-time for some of that period, to what extent were 16 you involved with the running and involvement with the 17 post office business itself? 18 CAROL CHARLTON: I, sort of like, did a lot of work 19 alongside Kim when I wasn't doing teaching. I also, 20 sort of like, did all the cash and carry runs and 21 things like this for the shop. I quite enjoyed that. 22 FACILITATOR: So pretty closely involved then, by the 23 sounds of it? 24 CAROL CHARLTON: Yes, I was closely involved. I mean, 25 I was there when, you know, we had problems a bit 15 1 later on and that. We did have problems every time 2 there was a thunder storm. You know, we used to have 3 sort of times when we used to have to reboot the 4 computer several times and that, just to get them 5 going again. 6 Kim had complained to the Post Office because 7 all of our printers and terminals ran off one 8 three-pin -- three, sort of like, thing extension 9 lead, it all went through there, like a domestic -- 10 she said at the time, and that, she didn't think that 11 was particularly satisfactory. She didn't feel quite 12 secure with that but they insisted that if the 13 engineers had set it up that way, that was fine. 14 FACILITATOR: Okay, well, we will come to those events in 15 a second, thank you. 16 So, Sian, do you want to just say a little bit 17 about your perspective on this, the beginnings of 18 this? 19 SIAN THOMAS: Yes. My father started out -- we lived in 20 a place called Malltraeth. His parents had a shop 21 there. My uncle had a pub and then, out of the blue, 22 my mum had an opportunity. We had a shop at the 23 time -- I think I was about 10 years old. So we 24 always had people around us and then they decided to 25 take the post office on in Malltraeth, because the 16 1 elderly people there unfortunately went frail and 2 couldn't cope with the work. 3 And then they decided, mum and dad, there was 4 an opportunity in Gaerwen, where we live now, and when 5 mum went ill they decided that dad was going to take 6 over. 7 I think, at that time, it was paper that they 8 started with and you could find things and my dad 9 worked his heart out to build that post office up. 10 The salary, I think, was only about 3,000 when we 11 bought it in the early 1980s. It went up to about 12 30,000. He was working with the industrial people, 13 selling stamps, and things like that, trying to tell 14 them "Don't buy a vending machine, I will get a bit of 15 discount if you buy stamps off me", and it grew and 16 grew. 17 And he was so much in with the local community 18 that he went in as a county councillor and I actually 19 was canvassing, and things, with him at the time, but 20 the worst nightmare he did was get the Horizon System 21 in. 22 It caused him so much stress. He was waking up 23 in the middle of the night and he was saying "Can 24 somebody come here and see the screen", and the screen 25 was just like figures rolling. It was very hard to 17 1 describe because I, years ago, did the YTS with the 2 Post Office but I wasn't involved, I went along 3 a different career. And that was the worst, worst 4 thing that he ever did was take that Horizon System 5 in, unfortunately. 6 FACILITATOR: So a couple of you have mentioned the 7 training, and such. I'm just interested in both of 8 those beginnings, about how prepared you were or what 9 resources you had, whether it was training, support, 10 whatever it might be, to make it work. What was the 11 situation at the start with Horizon for each of you, 12 at your settings? 13 PAUL BRANNLUND: Well, I think we had about three days 14 training at a local hotel. But it wasn't a live 15 system. It was just the -- it was just working in the 16 room and it was really just the nuts and bolts of the 17 basic selling of the products that we were going to be 18 selling with Horizon. 19 I certainly don't remember any training ever 20 about balancing and I seem to remember that -- we used 21 to have operational manuals then and there were about 22 eight of them and I think the balancing was explained 23 in one of those, so we literally just took that and 24 worked through balancing, step by step, never really 25 understanding why we were doing it in any particular 18 1 way. 2 FACILITATOR: Okay, thank you, Paul. How about the rest 3 of you? How well resourced did you feel by the 4 training or the wider organisation? 5 CAROL CHARLTON: We did have somebody with us for -- well, 6 it was supposed to be a week when we took over. He 7 wasn't there all the time. He had to keep popping off 8 all the time. He did do a balance with Kim, 9 I remember, that first time, and she just did things 10 his way from then on and then later found out that, 11 you know, one of the things that she was doing wasn't 12 the way that the Post Office liked it done, you know. 13 So there were little things like that really, 14 but I remember the manuals, yes. They were like great 15 things, and that, that you had to sort of trawl 16 through every time you -- especially when you got 17 something in that you had never had before. Like, the 18 first time I saw the fishing licence, you know, I had 19 to sort of trawl through and find out what it is you 20 were supposed to do so ... 21 FACILITATOR: Right, okay. 22 So, Wendy, you mentioned the training. Just 23 tell us a little bit about how prepared you felt to 24 take on Horizon then, you know, taking back to that 25 time? 19 1 WENDY BURKE: I really didn't feel prepared at all and, as 2 I said, I worked in the bank, they were computerised. 3 I picked it up fairly quickly, but when the trainers 4 arrived they just hadn't a clue. They were learning 5 as they went along. 6 They did stay in the branch for two days, so 7 I didn't have to go anywhere and my staff were all in 8 on those two days to learn the system, and they left 9 and it was just "I have no idea what to do next", and 10 we were really left to it. 11 We did ring the helpline numerous times because 12 a transaction coming up -- it was okay with the card 13 accounts, straightforward, swipe the card, off they 14 go, but the different types of transactions that came 15 in at the time -- and there were many -- you just 16 didn't know where to go. It's not a particularly 17 intuitive system and still really isn't, so then it 18 was just a nightmare. 19 In fact, because I sort of self-taught myself, 20 because I had to support the staff, I actually, as the 21 roll-out kept going, I sort of became the local 22 helpline for postmasters because they knew if they 23 rang the helpline it wasn't going to be a great 24 experience. So my phone never stopped, just solely 25 because I had had to learn the system myself. 20 1 FACILITATOR: So just from your reflections on that, did 2 you -- what sorts -- were they experiencing different 3 things to you or same sorts of issues? What were the 4 nature of the calls you were getting from 5 counterparts? 6 WENDY BURKE: Very similar issues. The ones that we would 7 have encountered at the very start as well when we 8 just didn't know where to go or how to process 9 a transaction, or if they had a shortage what reports 10 to run, you know, all of those things that it just 11 didn't -- it just didn't make sense on the system. 12 You had to actually go in there and find all these 13 things and -- 14 FACILITATOR: What time would that have been, roughly? 15 WENDY BURKE: Sorry? 16 FACILITATOR: What time would that have been, roughly, 17 what year? 18 WENDY BURKE: Oh, around about 2020, so it was right at 19 the very start of the system roll-out. 20 FACILITATOR: 20 -- you mean 2000? 21 WENDY BURKE: Sorry, 2020(sic). 22 FACILITATOR: Right, I'm with you, so the people were 23 calling you. 24 I will come on to the helpline in a moment. 25 Sian, you were obviously there with your father and 21 1 you mentioned how he started to get problems. Do you 2 want to just tell us how that felt when -- watching 3 that happen. What was your view of it then? 4 SIAN THOMAS: Your heart broke for him because he would be 5 sitting there for hours at night, you know, whereas 6 the family would be in the back because it was like 7 a post office and a house together, and he would just 8 be thinking "Where's all this money disappearing to?" 9 and he was trying to make good. 10 And I remember one incident when 11 Mrs van den Bogerd and his area manager came over and 12 sat with my mum and dad on the settee, he had lost 13 around £6,000 at the time. And the discussion was 14 over a cup of tea "You pay 3,000 and we will pay the 15 other 3,000", but he kept on calling the helpline for 16 help and all he was getting was "Oh, it will come back 17 to you next week or in a few weeks". But, like 18 everybody else, I don't think he had the paper trail 19 like he did when he was doing it manually, and he was 20 just getting so frustrated and I think my dad -- there 21 were three of them that went with him to Llanberis at 22 the time and I think my dad was the only one that 23 stayed on. 24 The rest of them decided, "No way", and I wish 25 to God now my dad would have been one of them, 22 1 you know, but he loved his community. It wasn't just 2 a post office, it was a community where everybody came 3 and asked advice and he wasn't just a subpostmaster, 4 he was one of the pillars of the community. 5 FACILITATOR: So he obviously saw the accounts going 6 wrong. You mentioned the area manager there and the 7 helpline. Let's just focus on the helpline for 8 a moment. Just describe to me what your view was or 9 what he told you about how he was using it and, 10 basically, how it felt, if you like, when those events 11 started to develop. 12 SIAN THOMAS: He kept the record, he had, like, a diary 13 behind him, if I remember correctly, and he used to 14 write on there how many times he was phoning them 15 a week and they kept on going to him -- that's all we 16 got really off them "It will come, it will come back, 17 don't worry about it". But, of course, as a family as 18 well -- I had two brothers and myself and my mum, and 19 we were all worried because dad was nearly 60 -- 20 I know it's young now but, at the time, it was a big 21 thing for him to do (inaudible) -- 22 FACILITATOR: What did he share with you about it at the 23 time? 24 SIAN THOMAS: He would be frustrated and we would go for 25 long walks and things and talk and say "Dad, what's 23 1 going on? Can you find it?" and he says "Nothing's 2 coming back", he says, "and all I get off the helpline 3 is" -- basically, they were a waste of space, sorry. 4 They had no idea how to help him. It was like 5 a script they were reading off the same time, it was 6 like "Question 1, this is what you should do", and he 7 would do it and, if anything, it made matters even 8 worse for him. 9 And I had a bit of background with the 10 Post Office but I wasn't involved, I had my own job, 11 but I still lived at home with them until I moved to 12 my property in Malltraeth but it was like a nightmare, 13 you wouldn't have any other conversation with him but, 14 you know, "I'm losing money". And he actually told 15 the investigators the day they walked in how much he 16 had lost and they still did what they did to him, 17 bless him. 18 FACILITATOR: How did it feel at that time to be the 19 daughter of somebody in that situation? 20 SIAN THOMAS: It was horrible. You would stress yourself. 21 You wouldn't -- we, as a family, weren't sleeping 22 properly. We were second-guessing each other saying, 23 you know, "Where is this going?" you know, "What's 24 happening to the office", and he had had a pride and 25 joy in that office. He loved his work, you know. He 24 1 had been with Royal Mail for years, you know, as 2 a postman and a subpostmaster and me, myself, I just 3 couldn't help him and it was making myself angry. 4 We were all bickering. All the topics of 5 conversation at the table was the post office. 6 You know, there was nothing on your mind but the 7 post office and it has been the same now for 16 years, 8 unfortunately. 9 FACILITATOR: Yes. Thank you, yes. I wonder, Carol, if 10 I could ask the sort of same question to you, really, 11 about how it feels to be, you know, seeing your loved 12 one, in your case your wife, going through this at the 13 beginning, you know, when it started to occur. 14 CAROL CHARLTON: It's been absolutely horrendous. I mean, 15 I will never forget the day that she was suspended. 16 She came home and she was as white as a sheet 17 and shaking and I just thought at the time that "How 18 can anybody think that Kim could do anything like 19 this?" I mean, she is one of the most genuine, honest 20 people you could wish to meet. 21 FACILITATOR: So how did that road to suspension start in 22 Kim's case and how did it feel to be watching it? 23 CAROL CHARLTON: Well, Kim had had like a shortage in the 24 summer -- like a huge shortage in the summer, 33,000, 25 sort of like, more or less overnight, and she had rung 25 1 them straight away and told them and got no help 2 whatsoever. I mean, it was ridiculous because we 3 didn't do that much turnover, so, you know, it was 4 a ridiculous amount. 5 FACILITATOR: When was that, sorry? 6 CAROL CHARLTON: That was in the summer of 2010, I think 7 it was. And she had settled centrally then and then, 8 later on, I think it was the -- it was either the 9 September or the October, the audit team turned up and 10 they said that they did this audit and said she was 11 another £5,000 short. 12 FACILITATOR: So she settled centrally on the 33,000? 13 CAROL CHARLTON: This is it, and Kim couldn't -- she 14 still, to this day, can't understand where that other 15 5,000 came from. It's just -- and, you know -- but 16 she was frustrated by it all. It was affecting her 17 sleep, definitely. I mean she -- you know, like 18 Sian's dad, she was having nightmares about things. 19 Straight after the suspension she was having 20 chest pains and things like this. She ended up going 21 to the hospital to have scans, and things like this. 22 It was that she just lost all her oomph, you know, she 23 just wasn't Kim. 24 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: When she discovered that 33,000 for the 25 first time, did she seek assistance from the helpline 26 1 then? 2 CAROL CHARLTON: She did. 3 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Tell me about that then, please, if you 4 would? 5 CAROL CHARLTON: Well, I wasn't there obviously when she 6 had the call. I was actually teaching at the time. 7 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Don't worry if it's what -- 8 CAROL CHARLTON: Well, I mean, from what she told me, 9 you know, she rang them and told them, you know, 10 said -- pointed out to them that it was a ridiculous 11 amount of money, you know, to go missing and things 12 like this, and she didn't get any help from them, as 13 far as I can gather, in that they couldn't find any 14 solution to it. 15 They said they would look into it and they would 16 report it, but then that was it. She settled 17 centrally and never heard about it again for months, 18 so she thought they must have sorted it some way. 19 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: So sorry to pursue this, but just to 20 get a few details, she rings the helpline, they don't 21 actually help very much, at least as far as you know, 22 but then your wife agreed to settle centrally, which 23 I understand what that means, so there wasn't an 24 audit, was there, at that point, notwithstanding that 25 much money? 27 1 CAROL CHARLTON: No, no, there wasn't an audit and this is 2 the strange thing is that when they -- when Kim was 3 first suspended, she wasn't accused of theft at all. 4 The letter that she got said that they -- how did they 5 put it? That she had lost control of the branch. 6 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: All right. 7 CAROL CHARLTON: And it wasn't until later on that, 8 actually -- when they found out that we weren't 9 willing to pay back this money that we didn't think we 10 were responsible for, then it changed and there was 11 a charge of theft made. We were never -- she was 12 never given the opportunity to say that -- false 13 accounting or anything like this because she was 14 adamant all the way through and that that she hadn't. 15 FACILITATOR: And did that 33,000 emerge as a one-off 16 discrepancy or was it cumulative of other 17 discrepancies? 18 CAROL CHARLTON: I think it was more or less overnight. 19 I don't know if it was a weekend or something, but it 20 basically just disappeared, this 33,000. 21 FACILITATOR: Right. 22 CAROL CHARLTON: But Kim still says today she didn't think 23 the money was there in the first place, because she -- 24 you know, she balanced regularly, you know, she knew 25 how much she had in the branch. At the time she was 28 1 having to order more money into the branch anyway 2 because a local branch was shut down for some reason 3 or other, so we were getting all their customers in, 4 so she was having to order more money in, you know, 5 but -- I don't know. We're both still -- to this day, 6 we have no idea what happened with that at all. 7 FACILITATOR: Okay, thank you. 8 CAROL CHARLTON: I just know the effect it had on her. 9 FACILITATOR: So, Wendy, you have described how you became 10 sort of a proxy helpline for your colleagues around in 11 the area. Tell us a little bit about the support that 12 you sought and received yourself. 13 WENDY BURKE: From the helpline? Goodness ... 14 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Before you do that, sorry to intervene 15 again, but I'm just curious, was there any kind of 16 different helpline for people in Northern Ireland, or 17 was it centrally for the UK? 18 WENDY BURKE: It was centrally for the UK. 19 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thanks. Carry on then, please. 20 WENDY BURKE: Thank you. Yes, you did continue to ring 21 them because sometimes you're really stuck. I do 22 agree -- somebody did mention that it felt like they 23 were reading off a script. 24 As time went on, I suppose they got a little bit 25 more of an insight into the system and you would have 29 1 times when they were helpful. I mean, you have to 2 give credit when credit is due. There were some there 3 who did go out of their way to try and help, but 4 I suppose, if you could do it yourself, you didn't 5 ring them. The call waiting times were long and 6 sometimes if you got somebody at the end of the phone 7 who you really felt didn't give a toss, sorry -- 8 didn't care and it was just -- it was almost like 9 a luck of the draw as to who you got speaking to, and 10 I suppose I kind of, at this stage, knew the system 11 more or less inside out and if you didn't really have 12 to ring them, you were very reluctant to go near them. 13 FACILITATOR: How frequently would you have been calling 14 them, for your own branch point of view, just thinking 15 back? 16 WENDY BURKE: We would have been calling them on a daily 17 basis, or potentially at least a few times a week. 18 There was always something came up where you were 19 stuck, whether it be just finding some sort of code 20 for an item to order in because you couldn't find it 21 within the Horizon System -- it's very clunky -- right 22 through to, you know, if there was something went 23 wrong, if you scanned a DVLA barcode incorrectly and 24 you knew you had done it. 25 "Oh, well, you're not going to hear about that 30 1 transaction correction for about 16 weeks if it comes 2 back" and when you get an attitude like that it's -- 3 you almost just roll your eyes and think "Goodness, 4 how unhelpful is that?" 5 FACILITATOR: Yes. 6 So, Paul, if we come to how you tried to resolve 7 your accounting issues. 8 PAUL BRANNLUND: When we first started, I said that we 9 were on the old paper system and we had a regional 10 helpline in Bristol and the people who made up the 11 helpline were all people who had worked on the 12 post office counter, so, obviously, if you had 13 an issue with your paper balancing or any transactions 14 you knew you were talking to somebody who had actually 15 worked in a post office and had actually done what you 16 were seeking the support with. 17 But I share the view of everybody else that when 18 we went over to Horizon and they centralised the 19 helpline, the service progressively got worse and 20 worse. 21 I didn't get the feeling that many of the people 22 who ever answered the phone had ever worked in 23 a post office and I often suspected they were reading 24 from a script, which was exactly the same as the 25 manual I had in front of me. So, really, I suppose, 31 1 like a lot of people, I used to devise my own crib 2 sheets for processes that I had to go regularly, like 3 balancing, and my staff would follow that crib sheet. 4 We didn't follow the -- it was a variation, but it was 5 to suit our branch and less and less I contacted the 6 helpline. 7 FACILITATOR: Right. So do you want to just give Sir Wyn 8 a quick example of something you might have rung the 9 helpline about that didn't get resolved, if you can 10 think back? 11 PAUL BRANNLUND: Well, it became increasingly difficult to 12 get anything resolved because they brought in a system 13 whereby, unless you had a customer in the actual 14 queue, and that was the problem -- say you were trying 15 to sell, I don't know, South African rand or 16 something, and you didn't know what to do, then you 17 could ring the helpline and they would then ask you 18 "Is a customer waiting?" and you would say "Yes", and 19 then they would help you. 20 But at other times, if you said no, they would 21 say "Well, we will ring you back", and so that 22 necessarily didn't really help you either, so 23 I think -- we did a lot of -- like Wendy said, two or 24 three local subpostmasters we used to ring each other 25 because, if I hadn't done a transaction, they might 32 1 have done. 2 FACILITATOR: Okay, and to what extent was that different, 3 if you had something like that, as you're saying with 4 the current customer issue versus trying to resolve 5 a discrepancy or a shortfall? 6 PAUL BRANNLUND: Well, I had to confess that we always had 7 discrepancies. They were impossible to actually audit 8 trail and we paid them because we knew that if we rung 9 the Post Office they would simply say "You will need 10 to put the money in, you will need to put the money 11 in". 12 I said at the outset we were very lucky. 13 I think our biggest shortage was something like £800, 14 so we just paid it and, obviously, it never came back 15 to us, but ... over the, what, 14 years of Horizon -- 16 no -- yes, 15 years of Horizon, we probably put in 17 thousands but we were lucky, the shop was prosperous 18 and we just used to rob the shop, you know, it was ... 19 FACILITATOR: So for those of us who weren't or aren't 20 involved in running a branch, when you had those 21 ad hoc, you know, shortages, what did you do to 22 monitor them or, more importantly, to report them, or 23 was it purely -- 24 PAUL BRANNLUND: Well, I certainly didn't -- I mean, we 25 didn't report them to the Post Office after a while, 33 1 because there was never any support, and I wanted to 2 say earlier that when we had -- I was so disappointed 3 when Horizon arrived, I mean the hardware and the 4 software, because we already had a very good EPOS 5 system in the shop, electronic point of sale, and we 6 had back up from the company that put it in, so that 7 if we have discrepancies with our shop tills, they 8 would literally come in through the back office and 9 fix it. And we had an audit trail, we could look and 10 see "Oh, that's been missold", something like -- 11 You know, we would have something like £1,000 12 worth of telephone top-ups and we would find it 13 because one of the staff had put an extra 0 in, 14 you know, so instead of selling 100 they had sold 15 1,000. But we could find that with the shop system 16 but, of course, with the Post Office there was no 17 audit trail at all, there's nothing. You get faced 18 with £160 shortage on a Wednesday afternoon, you have 19 no means of actually checking it at all, other than 20 checking your stock and checking your cash and if you 21 can't find it there, well -- so we just resigned 22 ourselves to paying it. 23 I mean, Wednesdays was an awful day and Paul was 24 usually either in a tantrum or smiling, you know, 25 because it was so frustrating. We tried staff 34 1 training. We thought there was an issue with the 2 stack because, if a member of staff didn't clear the 3 stack, then a Post Office card account payment could 4 stay in the stack and then get paid again. We thought 5 of all the things that we might be doing, but it never 6 resolved it and -- yes, we just ended up paying. 7 FACILITATOR: So we have talked -- several of you talked 8 about the helpline itself. I was just wondering about 9 the role of other parts of the organisation of Post 10 Office Limited, so I guess for the area managers or 11 anyone else. Before it came to any kind of action 12 against you. 13 Sian, thinking back to what your -- you know, 14 your father's events and the family, what happened 15 before it got to that stage of taking action against 16 your dad? 17 SIAN THOMAS: That was the major one, you know. He had 18 a few, he would say to us, up and down with the 19 accounts when he was doing it paper-wise, but when the 20 Horizon one came in, he had no hope, you know. They 21 kept on telling reboot, and there was no help from his 22 area manager, or Mrs van den Bogerd at the time. They 23 just wanted you to carry on. 24 And the auditors would come in and you would be 25 fine, but that morning on 3 October, when they knocked 35 1 on the door at 7.30, I had gone to work and, luckily, 2 I only worked five minutes down the road in the 3 industrial estate and that day will live with us for 4 the rest of our lives, really. I had never seen my 5 dad in handcuffs and I wouldn't wish it on anybody, 6 really. They were very hard on him. 7 But what really got me was they did actually 8 re-open the branch with a gentleman down the road and 9 the auditors worked with him that morning and after 10 about half an hour, they shut the shop and I said 11 "What's going on?" and they said "Oh, he is short", 12 and I was going "Short? Doesn't this ring alarm 13 bells", and unfortunately they just left it at that. 14 All they wanted was to question Dad on his own 15 and there was no way we were going to let him be 16 questioned on his own. That's why we decided to take 17 him to Holyhead Police Station and he was there until 18 1.30 in the morning, and I remember the two 19 auditors -- one was helping with the fingerprinting of 20 Dad, and we were just outside the door and I remember 21 one of the auditors coming up to me and saying "If 22 you've got the money, you can fight this" and, 23 unfortunately, you know, Dad had lost his job, he was 24 allowed to carry on with the Council until the court 25 case, but they basically went from a high to 36 1 an absolutely rock-bottom situation, unfortunately. 2 FACILITATOR: Right, okay. 3 So, Carol and Wendy and Paul, I just wondered, 4 did you get any kind of advice or support on how to 5 resolve the shortfalls and discrepancies? Was there 6 anything, kind of, before the action was taken that 7 would have helped you from the Post Office Limited 8 that they provided? 9 WENDY BURKE: If I can just answer that. You asked about 10 area managers as well. I think locally in 11 Northern Ireland we were lucky with our area managers. 12 They were extremely good and extremely helpful and, to 13 be honest, to this day, we're still very lucky with 14 them, but they weren't really there to resolve 15 discrepancies. They were there, and more and more 16 were there to push sales and you had to sell this and 17 sell that and they did it in a really nice manner, but 18 they weren't really resolving anything with the 19 discrepancy or anything. 20 It was -- you were really depending on the 21 helpline. I mean, I can give -- I could give you 22 loads of examples but I had a shortage of £2,700 one 23 evening when I balanced. I was very lucky that I have 24 had cameras that were very good in branch and I went 25 through every single transaction against the 37 1 transaction log and it would take hours to do it, and 2 it wasn't the only time I had to do it, and I found 3 a transaction, I knew what it was, I had miskeyed £300 4 for £3,000, which left me at £2,700 short and I rang 5 the helpline to get help. I mean, they can trace what 6 bank it went into, they can do everything in the 7 background. But they just won't. They just wouldn't 8 help, "You will have to put the money in", and I was 9 told that. 10 Now, the gentleman who was at the counter used 11 to be a postman when my father had a post office and 12 the postmen, and I knew, more or less, where he lived 13 and I was able to contact a member of his family and 14 he came down with the money a couple of days later, no 15 problem at all. He said it was an account that he 16 seldom used, it paid his mortgage, and he says he 17 probably wouldn't have even got a statement in for two 18 or three months and I would have had to pay that back 19 and that's the way we were treated. 20 You just -- it was just incredible when you look 21 back on it, but almost expected when you phoned, 22 you know, did you expect a lot of help? Probably not. 23 I could give loads of examples of that and, yes, 24 I made mistakes, everybody makes mistakes. Shortages, 25 yes I had them, I had numerous ones; overages, I would 38 1 have had some of those too. But you just didn't get 2 the support that you needed. 3 FACILITATOR: Right. 4 Carol, what parts of these resonate with you, or 5 what's different from your experiences? 6 CAROL CHARLTON: A lot resonates with me, really, but 7 I think one of the things is that Kim had been quite 8 active in the Federation, more or less for a social 9 thing more than anything else. It was good, she 10 thought, to network with other people, but the 11 Federation took the -- as soon as this happened, it 12 was like she was cut adrift. 13 There was one of the Federation people who ran 14 a post office just over the other side of the town to 15 us. He came to Kim's investigation meeting with her 16 but more as a friend than anything. But the 17 Federation itself, and that, wouldn't help. They just 18 wouldn't help at all. 19 And, in fact, you know, not long after all of 20 this happened, Kim actually got a phonecall from 21 George Thompson at the Federation and, to cut a long 22 story short, he was quite sarcastic. He said it was 23 strange how nobody ever reported a large over, 24 you know, so he was insinuating that this was -- 25 you know, or his subpostmasters, who he was supposed 39 1 to represent, were all bad 'uns and he basically told 2 Kim to shut up and think about what it would do to the 3 network. 4 FACILITATOR: When did that call and those events take 5 place? 6 CAROL CHARLTON: I haven't -- it's in her notes because 7 I did encourage Kim to keep a diary through 8 everything. So it's in her notes there somewhere. 9 I think it was some time around -- just after 10 Christmas, it was. 11 FACILITATOR: Of what year, sorry? 12 CAROL CHARLTON: Well, it would have been early 2011, 13 I would think. 14 FACILITATOR: Right. 15 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Is this -- was this at the time, or 16 shortly after the time when you said she suddenly 17 found a discrepancy of 33,000? Is it all wrapped up 18 with that? 19 CAROL CHARLTON: Well, it -- she was suspended -- I think 20 it was October 2010 -- sorry, I'm a bit foggy on the 21 dates. She was suspended September or October. She 22 had to herself try to find somebody -- like a relief 23 manager to come in to re-open the branch, because they 24 closed the front -- the branch down and defunded it. 25 So she had to run -- do all the running round and try 40 1 to find people to get the post office back open again 2 for the customers. 3 In the meantime, there were letters going 4 backwards and forwards between her and I think it was 5 Andy Carpenter, you know, and we were just -- we were 6 basically saying, you know, the postmaster contract 7 says that we're responsible if it's our fault but, 8 you know, we didn't think it was our fault. That was 9 the whole thing and we were digging our heels in 10 rather over that. 11 But, as I say, as soon as she was suspended, the 12 Federation wanted nothing to do with her whatsoever 13 and it was just really because Dennis was a friend of 14 Kim's that he came along with her to the meeting -- 15 well, the investigation that took place. But she 16 was -- all the way through, really, and that, 17 people -- she -- she trusted the people at the 18 Post Office and I think now she realises that was 19 a very silly thing to do. 20 I mean, when she was audited one of the auditors 21 actually said to her, "Oh, we think we've got problems 22 with Horizon again". So when Kim had her 23 investigation she brought this up and sort of said, 24 you know, "What did she mean by that? Has there been 25 problems with Horizon?" and that was it, it was 41 1 totally shut down and I think it was not long after 2 that that she got this phonecall from George Thompson. 3 FACILITATOR: Was that audit taken to -- take place at 4 branch after the 33,000 emerged, do you mean? 5 CAROL CHARLTON: Well, no, this was about three months 6 later. It wasn't straightaway. This is what 7 surprised me, is that 33,000 -- they didn't send 8 auditors in really straightaway. 9 FACILITATOR: Yes. 10 CAROL CHARLTON: There was an audit when they did the 11 transfer over to Horizon Online, but that wasn't -- it 12 was really more a stock take than anything, you know. 13 But this auditor later on just denied she ever 14 said it, you know, so -- and all the way through it's 15 been the -- you know, prove to us that you didn't do 16 it, you know, and it's very hard to do that when 17 they're lying all the time. 18 FACILITATOR: Yes. So, Paul, what's your perspective on 19 where -- you know, the events and the reaction -- 20 because you didn't report these to the Post Office, is 21 that right? 22 PAUL BRANNLUND: No, no. 23 FACILITATOR: Did you ever get audited or anything like 24 that? 25 PAUL BRANNLUND: I got audited a few weeks after -- a few 42 1 months -- no, a few months after I first went there. 2 That was a manual audit, and I certainly had an audit 3 in 2010 but it was fine, it was like £9.60 or 4 something. I actually found the paperwork. No, 5 I wonder whether, because we didn't ring the help desk 6 and we always put the money, sofar as the Post Office 7 was concerned it was hunky-dory. 8 But I totally agree I -- what I can never 9 understand is that there doesn't ever seem to be 10 an audit trail with any of this, so when we had 11 a shortage we had no way of trying to find it, other 12 than spending hours going through the daily 13 transaction logs, which weren't exactly helpful, 14 unless you had an error like Wendy talked about just 15 now. I mean, you could look at the transaction logs 16 but you couldn't actually -- they weren't really very 17 helpful at all. 18 I mean -- and as with so much of the 19 transactions, they instantly left the office, so once 20 they were gone, unless the Post Office were on the 21 ball with an error, it never came back. 22 I mean we -- we had very few error notices in 23 the, what was it, 14/15 years of Horizon, so all those 24 shortages were never explained, other than being our 25 fault and our mistake. 43 1 FACILITATOR: So can I just clarify then, so you're 2 settling the shortfalls, as a matter of course, by the 3 sound of it? 4 PAUL BRANNLUND: Yes. 5 FACILITATOR: So because you weren't reporting them, was 6 there any way at all that, outside your four walls, 7 that anyone in the wider Post Office Limited 8 organisation could have known that these shortfalls 9 were happening? 10 PAUL BRANNLUND: Well, that's the thing about Horizon, 11 I don't really know. I mean, when you did a balance 12 you had to do something called a trial balance. Now, 13 the trial balance was where the system would tell you 14 where your shortages or overs were and then, once you 15 saw that, it would usually tell you how much cash was 16 short because, obviously, if you had stamps short, you 17 couldn't put stamps in, you just had to pay the value 18 of those stamps. 19 So you would do this trial balance and it would 20 say 150 short, so you would then put that £150 into 21 your cash and then you would do the balance because, 22 unless you did a zero balance, you could not rollover, 23 so they had a -- they had us by the whatsits really, 24 because you knew that you had to rollover because, if 25 you didn't rollover, you couldn't open on Thursday 44 1 morning. 2 FACILITATOR: Okay, so -- 3 PAUL BRANNLUND: So yes, but I strongly believe that the 4 Post Office must have the knowledge of my trial 5 balances going back 15 years. They may say they 6 don't, but I don't believe that because if it's gone 7 through Horizon it must be stored somewhere. 8 FACILITATOR: So -- well, you have kind of answered my 9 next -- I was going to ask you about the monitoring 10 and management of both the trial balances and your 11 trading period balances, and so on. Did you ever 12 discuss those? Was anything ever communicated with 13 you in terms of managing and monitoring -- 14 PAUL BRANNLUND: What, with the Post Office? 15 FACILITATOR: Yes. 16 PAUL BRANNLUND: I mean, the Post Office -- I had one or 17 two -- in the early days, we did in Cornwall have area 18 managers but they have gradually got cut out and 19 disappeared, but then they came back when there was 20 the move towards locals, and then you suddenly saw 21 these people all the time trying to get you to switch 22 from the fortress office to a local post office. 23 So no, not really a lot of support at all and, 24 I guess, because we never reported anything, we never 25 really got a lot of -- but I did keep a record. Sadly 45 1 I left it in a post office when I retired. I did have 2 a record of all my shortages. I mean, I know for 3 a fact that it -- it used to -- when it was paper it 4 used to almost balance itself out. When it became 5 Horizon, it was always against us, most of the time. 6 CAROL CHARLTON: Can I just say something about the data 7 that Post Office centrally must have, following up on 8 what Paul has just been saying there? 9 We wrote to our MP in the December of 2010 and 10 he put a parliamentary question to Ed Davey, who then 11 passed it to Paula Vennells, who wrote back and her 12 response says this -- I'm just going to quote this: 13 "A transaction log is available for every branch 14 and full audit logs of all system and user activity 15 are securely sealed, backed up and retained to provide 16 an evidential and investigatory repository." 17 That's hard to say. And it's not true, or if it 18 is true, I don't understand why, when we asked for, 19 you know, sort of transaction logs and things like 20 this, that we -- you know, we were told they weren't 21 available. 22 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Excuse me, the letter that you sent to 23 your MP and the reply which you have just read from, 24 do you think you would be prepared to send that to me 25 so that I can see these documents for myself? 46 1 CAROL CHARLTON: Yes, no problem. 2 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you very much. 3 FACILITATOR: So, Wendy, I wonder if we could pick up on 4 that theme of data, basically data exchange, 5 information exchange. What were you able to access to 6 help to unravel what was going on, what would you have 7 liked that you couldn't get? If you just tell us 8 a story about that, if you wouldn't mind. 9 WENDY BURKE: On the system you were able to access sort 10 of every day transactions. You could go back over 11 a number of reports that you have, like the 12 transaction log. As has already been said, the 13 transaction log was very difficult to read and, whilst 14 it was easily accessible, without my cameras, as 15 I have mentioned before, I don't think it would have 16 been an awful lot of use. 17 The data that was held by Post Office, would 18 they -- certainly I asked for data. I had an issue, 19 for instance, with the changeover day for HNG, for the 20 new generation Horizon, in April 2010 and, on the day 21 of changeover, the system was dropping out. We had 22 two trainers again that day. The system was dropping 23 out. We had a queue at the door. Rang the helpline 24 numerous times to tell them that there was a real 25 issue with the system and, by the end of the day, 47 1 I had a large loss. 2 To me, it was large, it was quite a few hundred 3 pounds, and I rang the Post Office numerous times on 4 a daily basis after that and I have, from the official 5 Post Office call log, because I asked for it, they 6 advised if I can "provide evidence for details of the 7 transactions they claim have caused discrepancies, 8 these will be investigated". That's what they said to 9 me and that's an appalling way to treat anybody 10 because they've got the back-end system that we could 11 not see. So they could have interrogated that system 12 for the full day to see what happened but ... 13 PAUL BRANNLUND: They don't. 14 SIAN THOMAS: No. 15 FACILITATOR: We have talked about support in terms of 16 people and account managers, and so on. Picking up on 17 that, Wendy -- what -- did any of you get any 18 technical support? I think it was you Carol who 19 mentioned thunder storms and things, but did any of 20 you get any interventions which would try and solve 21 a technical solution to the problems you were 22 experiencing? 23 CAROL CHARLTON: Can I just say when we had a relief 24 manager in after Kim got suspended, the relief manager 25 was refusing to use one of the terminals and Fujitsu 48 1 came in and they took it away and they replaced it. 2 Now, we have been saying for ages that we were 3 having problems and nothing was done. 4 SIAN THOMAS: Dad was the same, actually. Dad had his 5 machine -- the Post Office engineers came out three 6 times in a year to reboot and redo the machine and 7 I remember the day when Dad -- they locked the office 8 door after him, hoovered the office, and then they 9 turned round to us when we wanted the data to prove 10 that Dad was not guilty, they turned round to us and 11 said they had had a fire where the computer systems 12 were and they turned round also and said to us that 13 there was a flood. 14 So we still, to today, really didn't have any 15 evidence to support that Dad had taken that 48,000, 16 but all we got was that the computer was dead after 17 six weeks and they couldn't reboot it. 18 FACILITATOR: Who specifically was telling you this about 19 the fire and -- 20 SIAN THOMAS: This was the Post Office -- the Post Office 21 actually told our barrister that there had been a fire 22 and then there was a gentleman from Panorama called 23 John Sweeney did some digging for us, and they told 24 him that it was water damage. So, basically, we 25 couldn't work out, you know -- and we really didn't 49 1 have anything to support Dad because they 2 physically -- and I mean physically hoovered 3 everything. There wasn't even a chequebook. Every 4 personal thing he had in that office and his 5 sub-post office things were gone, so we didn't have 6 anything to fight really, unfortunately. 7 CAROL CHARLTON: We were told after -- after Kim's case 8 was actually dropped, after the Second Sight report 9 came out, we asked the Post Office solicitors if we 10 could have a copy of Kim's files because we never had 11 an explanation of why they had dropped it. And we 12 were told that they had lost them, they had lost Kim's 13 file. 14 FACILITATOR: That was the Post Office solicitors told 15 your solicitors? 16 CAROL CHARLTON: Yes. 17 FACILITATOR: Right, okay. 18 So one of the themes that I'm interested in 19 looking at is kind of this information flow, if you 20 want to call it that. So I will just start, for 21 example -- Paul, I think you mentioned earlier that 22 you felt in a sense -- your experiences mirror those 23 of 10,000 others who didn't go into the suspension 24 stage, effectively. You were paying back the money. 25 Who did you talk to or who have you shared all your 50 1 experiences with in the wider world? 2 PAUL BRANNLUND: Virtually nobody, I think, really. We 3 retired in 2016 and, you know, I just walked away. 4 I was so glad to get away from the Post Office. 5 I mean, from the excitement of the start, by the time 6 we came to sell the business, I -- you know, if I had 7 my time again I would never have bought a post office. 8 I would have bought a stand-alone supermarket-type 9 village shop. 10 They tried to control so much of our business. 11 You know, you couldn't have lottery without their 12 permission, you couldn't do this, you couldn't -- we 13 had no access in the village to electricity and 14 top-ups because the other shop was not doing them any 15 more and we couldn't get it because the Post Office 16 had to approve it. You know, I'm -- I didn't really 17 talk -- I think, in many respects, even when you went 18 to Post Office meetings, a lot of us would not talk 19 about shortages, because it was viewed as sort of -- 20 you know, not the thing to talk about. 21 You know, so many subpostmasters would never -- 22 I mean, I met subpostmasters who told me they balanced 23 to zero every week. I never did that in 18 years, 24 you know. I don't think anybody has done it, to be 25 honest, but there were people who would tell you they 51 1 did. 2 FACILITATOR: I just wanted to pick up on that. You used 3 the figure of 10,000. I mean, obviously that's based, 4 to a degree, on an assumption but I'm interested in 5 what you heard from other people. So picking your 6 point you said there, why was it not kind of the thing 7 to talk about? Where did you get that feeling from? 8 PAUL BRANNLUND: The Post Office. I mean, the 9 Post Office -- you know, I mean, I had 18 years of 10 running a perfectly good shop and post office, but 11 I always feared the auditors because I always feared 12 that they would find something that I didn't know was 13 there, you know, so you live with that fear. You did 14 as you were told. Partly, the reason I didn't report 15 shortages was I didn't want the Post Office to know 16 and I think a lot of people -- a lot of subpostmasters 17 had that anxiety because of the controlling way the 18 Post Office was. 19 I mean, you know, we're hearing in this Inquiry 20 some of the really nasty things that happened to 21 subpostmasters, but they pretty much treated everybody 22 the same. They were not a nice organisation to work 23 for. I wouldn't work for them again ever. 24 FACILITATOR: So when you're thinking about your, sort of, 25 informal network that you had in the area, I mean, how 52 1 widely did you share these concerns or events, just to 2 sort of paint me a picture of how that communication 3 flow happened within yourselves and to the 4 Post Office? 5 WENDY BURKE: I think what Paul said was right there. You 6 didn't really talk about shortages, or overages, or 7 misbalances, because that was also like you have done 8 something -- it would have been a bit embarrassing 9 and, certainly, Post Office wouldn't have discussed 10 things like that. 11 I would have discussed it more with mum and dad, 12 really, because, obviously, with the history in the 13 Post Office and dad knew how passionate I was and he 14 couldn't quite understand what was happening when, 15 like, years back when I was running it we didn't 16 misbalance, maybe a few pence here or there, but 17 that's only to be expected, and he couldn't understand 18 what was going on. 19 In fact, without mum and dad, I probably could 20 have been in the same position as other postmasters 21 and postmistresses have been because they supported me 22 financially as well as emotionally. Some of them -- 23 some of the shortfalls that I had I didn't even tell 24 them about, but there were a couple of large ones that 25 I had that I did because I was being told by 53 1 Post Office that they were taking it out of my 2 remuneration, and to lose £500 a month out of my 3 remuneration would have been devastating. I was 4 a single parent on my own with two boys. But they had 5 a lack of care really, so my father helped me with 6 that. 7 Yes, it's -- so I think he was really my 8 support. 9 FACILITATOR: Yes. 10 So, Sian, obviously in your situation your 11 father was, you know -- the legal action was taken 12 against him and everything. To what extent do you 13 feel -- if we move on -- we have heard about the 14 attitude of the Post Office and things, but do you 15 want to sum up how all that felt from your point of 16 view, as you went through those stages, as things got 17 more and more serious in the legal sense? 18 SIAN THOMAS: It was horrendous. I actually took my dad 19 to the police station and you see somebody in 20 handcuffs, it's not very nice. We were in court 21 nearly every month. We started in the Magistrates, 22 went to the Crown and then the dreaded day, 23 3 October 2005, he was sent down. Apparently, they 24 told him "We will drop the theft and we will just go 25 for false accounting", and the morning I went to the 54 1 local shop to get some bread and stuff, and my dad's 2 face was all over the local paper in his handcuffs. 3 It was like he had killed somebody to be honest. 4 And I remember when they took him down they gave 5 me his coat and his wallet and I hugged that coat 6 until the day that we got back to him. 7 The worst part was not knowing where dad had 8 gone to. I phoned the barrister, the solicitor, and 9 my mum and me and my brothers were sitting there 10 asking, you know, "Where is dad today?" and it took us 11 eight long days to find out that he was in Walton 12 prison. We had to wait another two weeks when he got 13 transferred to Preston, to Kirkham, and, well, we 14 weren't really supposed to give him a hug but, my God, 15 I don't care if they had arrested me on that day, 16 I gave him the biggest hug of my life. 17 But, you know, people used to look at you in the 18 street -- and my dad was a big character and people 19 would be spitting at me and screaming at me and saying 20 my dad is a thief. 21 You know, he had lost everything. They had to 22 sell and move in with me for a year, but the worst 23 part of this committal was the tag. They would 24 intrude your property -- when he did his three months 25 in prison and gave him the tag, they actually were 55 1 knocking on my door nearly every night asking me where 2 he was after 7 o'clock at night because the curfew was 3 7.00 at night until 7.00 in the morning and I would 4 get up and I would ask them "What do you want?" 5 "Oh, your dad, where is he, we've got no 6 signal". I said, "We live in a dip. He's not going 7 anywhere". And they would intrude my parent's bedroom 8 and they would be picking up the sheets, the blankets 9 and things to see if he was there, and apparently the 10 tag battery had died and that's why they couldn't find 11 him. So if you just ask, it was just everything went 12 wrong for him. You know, we had to tell his 13 grandchildren, that was two, four and seven at the 14 time, that he has gone to Blackpool on holiday and we 15 had to find (inaudible) rock for him. You know, we 16 couldn't tell them, you know, "Taid is in prison". 17 But after a few years we had to explain, because 18 they were going to school, because me and my dad made 19 it such a -- in the first three years, we were told it 20 was only you, but after that three years we had 21 a gentleman called Sean Teckwyn(?), he was my dad's 22 friend, he was a journalist, and he said "Noel, it's 23 not just you", and from that day we have been -- our 24 faces have been everywhere for the right reasons, 25 you know. We fought this for the right reasons for 56 1 him and I don't regret, you know, 16 years I have lost 2 of my life, really, fighting for him. The only place 3 I didn't go with him was jail. I have done everything 4 else for him. 5 FACILITATOR: I wonder if you can describe to Sir Wyn how 6 the feelings sort of moved between feeling it was just 7 you, or just your dad, and then being told it wasn't 8 and then realising it wasn't? What's the kind of 9 movement of those emotions? 10 SIAN THOMAS: You can't describe it, and Lorraine Williams 11 she was with us in London, she was testifying the 12 Tuesday after. She only lived two miles down the road 13 to us and we hadn't known about her either. You felt 14 isolated. You were scared, like everybody says, 15 talking about it because, you know, this was the 16 Post Office, you were against the Queen. It wasn't 17 something you -- you just hid, basically, and still 18 today we find it very hard, you know, especially my 19 mum to go outside and things. 20 She needs somebody with her because even now he 21 has been exonerated, we still feel that people have 22 been saying "Oh, your father got away with it", 23 you know. But once we got people, and things started 24 rolling, and going to meetings and finding that, 25 you know, "Gosh, these are just ordinary people, how 57 1 can this happen?" and we were all different ethnic -- 2 you know, it was a broad variety of people and it was 3 an amazing feeling, but, you know, it's still been 4 a hard battle as well and it's still, unfortunately, 5 going on. 6 My dad was 75 at Christmas and he is retired at 7 last, but he still finds that -- you know, you've got 8 to wake up in the morning and I have been living with 9 him for 16 years because of the financial hardship 10 and, if anything happens to them tomorrow, they live 11 in a pensioners' bungalow. Unfortunately, I had to 12 sell my house at the time with proceeds of crime and 13 we couldn't afford -- because Dad was bankrupt, Mum 14 didn't have -- only her pension. I think I paid back 15 around 9,000, so I had to sell the house. So if 16 anything happens to my family tomorrow, my mum and 17 dad, I will be homeless. 18 You know, it's still a kick on effect, but there 19 has been a bit of relief as well, and sadness. We 20 lost my brother two years ago this month and he wasn't 21 here to see the final verdict, really. That was hard. 22 Six weeks of cancer and we really went through the 23 mill with him and trying to fight for Dad, but I'm 24 glad and I'm proud of everybody. You know, every 25 single person that's been speaking in this Inquiry has 58 1 been very humble and I just want to thank everybody 2 for the opportunity, you know, to speak about our 3 family because it does mean a lot to us. 4 FACILITATOR: Thank you. Thank you, Sian. We will come 5 back before we finish for you to reflect on some of 6 the ongoing impacts, if that's all right, so it's -- 7 well, I don't think -- I think it's probably me and 8 Sir Wyn who will be thanking you, rather than the 9 other way round, but I appreciate that. 10 I just wonder, Carol, if we could just pick up 11 your and Kim's events, so the suspension -- do you 12 want to sort of trace through kind of how it was 13 resolved and just so that we can understand what 14 happened there? I use the word "resolved" loosely, 15 but if you know what I mean. 16 CAROL CHARLTON: Well, Kim was suspended. She had 17 an investigatory interview, which Dennis from the 18 Federation sort of attended with her, just as a friend 19 and, basically, she went through everything and she 20 said that, you know, she had lost faith in Horizon and 21 she really felt, sort of, that it was Horizon that had 22 done something, or there had been some sort of fault 23 on it and, basically, I think that was -- that was in 24 a way why they pursued her so long, because they 25 were -- she was attacking Horizon. 59 1 It was like, you know, "Horizon is untouchable, 2 Horizon is this" -- I mean, we still cringe today 3 every time we hear the word "robust", you know. 4 FACILITATOR: Can I just ask for some of the specifics of 5 that, just so I can understand those events. So who 6 would those conversations have been with that were 7 telling you it was robust or telling you not to talk 8 about Horizon? What's the story there? 9 CAROL CHARLTON: Well, after this happened, I mean, I -- 10 we were told we were the only ones it had ever 11 happened to. We now know that there are quite 12 a cluster around sort of Newcastle area, and Marion 13 who gave testimony yesterday, you know, we used to go 14 down to the sort of -- the JFSA meetings, and that, 15 with Marion and Pete. Pete was a lovely man. But you 16 were told "You're the only ones", that's the thing, so 17 you do feel isolated. 18 So I needed to do something practical, so I was 19 trawling the internet every night when I got in from 20 school, doing searches on different things and that, 21 trying to dig and find out information and, in the 22 end, I found Alan's name, Alan Bates, and we got 23 involved with the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance 24 and the relief of knowing that it wasn't just us, that 25 we weren't these, like, master criminals and -- 60 1 you know, the first time we went to a meeting 2 I remember turning round to Kim and saying "Well, 3 these look like a bunch of villains, don't they?" 4 because there were all these just ordinary people and, 5 you know, sharing teas and coffees together and people 6 had brought snacks and things, and it was just -- the 7 relief of knowing that it wasn't us. 8 But then it was the sense of helplessness 9 because you were trying to fight this big organisation 10 and they had all the power and, basically, if they 11 said you were a wrong 'un, you were a wrong 'un, you 12 know. It was so hard. You just kept feeling like you 13 were batting your head against a brick wall all the 14 time. 15 But I did do a lot of searching, as I say. 16 I even found out that the gentleman who was her 17 independent appeal manager, who did her independent 18 appeal, actually wasn't independent at all. He was 19 involved in the team that was drumming up business for 20 the Post Office franchises, so nothing, sort of like, 21 remotely independent about him at all. 22 But I was coming across more, and more, and 23 more, sort of like, cases all the time and -- I mean, 24 the effect that it had on us, I mean, it -- 25 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Before you get to the effect, can 61 1 I just be clear that I have understood something you 2 said earlier. It got to the stage, did it, that 3 criminal charges were brought against Ms Whiley -- 4 CAROL CHARLTON: Yes. 5 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: -- but then dropped, right, have I got 6 that right? 7 CAROL CHARLTON: She had two appearances at 8 Magistrates' Court and the first time she went to 9 the Magistrates' Court, a security guard asked her who 10 she was defending, you know. So she must look 11 a bad 'un! And then she had one, sort of like, 12 appearance at Crown Court and it was -- it was all 13 being delayed because the Post Office didn't have the 14 evidence ready and then, in the end, there was the 15 Second Sight report came out and Kim's was one of 16 three cases that was dropped in the aftermath of the 17 Second Sight report, and all they did was drop the 18 charges and basically said it wasn't in the public 19 interest. 20 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Right. 21 CAROL CHARLTON: So, in a way, Kim felt like she has never 22 had her day in court. She has never been able to 23 prove she hasn't done it. She hasn't got a not guilty 24 verdict at all. It's just that they dropped it 25 because it wasn't in the public interest. 62 1 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Was she actually charged with theft or 2 false accounting, or both? 3 CAROL CHARLTON: Theft. 4 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Obviously, from what you have said, 5 a substantial sum of money? 6 CAROL CHARLTON: Yes. The police were never ever involved 7 in our case. 8 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: No, no, I appreciate that. Then my 9 final question is, apart from, I take it, the 10 Post Office lawyer telling the judge in court it 11 wasn't in the public interest to continue with the 12 case, was there any other kind of detailed explanation 13 ever given to her as to why it was dropped? 14 CAROL CHARLTON: No, not to us. This is why we asked for 15 the solicitors, if we could have Kim's file, which we 16 thought we were entitled to, and that's when they said 17 it had been lost. 18 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, all right. Sorry for intervening 19 like that but I just wanted to get those details and 20 I think you were then going on to tell me about the 21 effect all that had on you both. 22 CAROL CHARLTON: Oh, yes. Well, I mean, we -- we kept 23 going really because -- I went back to teaching 24 full-time, so we managed to keep ticking over, but we 25 owed a lot of money. I mean we owed a bank loan still 63 1 to help buy the post office. We owed on, sort of 2 like, credit cards and things like this, and that all 3 had to be paid off. At the time we were living in 4 a very little -- little sort of studenty flat in 5 Heaton and living, you know, quite frugally, really. 6 Kim's mum and dad had been brilliant through all 7 of this. I mean, you know, they have supported Kim 8 through thick and thin and they had actually lent us 9 the money to keep paying the staff when the 10 Post Office -- when we were trying to get the 11 post office reopened for the customers. So Kim had to 12 sort of actually keep paying them, right, and we 13 borrowed a huge sum of money from Kim's mum. So when 14 she died last week, you know, awful but we still owed 15 her money and we will never be able to put that right 16 at all. 17 I mean healthwise, you know, Kim's dad is angry 18 all the time about it. You have just got to mention 19 the Post Office and he blows up and it really worries 20 us because he had already had a heart attack. 21 Kim herself has thyroid problems. The pair of 22 us have both been on anti-depressants since the 23 beginning of this and that sort of has a knock-on 24 effect with the way you sort of deal with everything 25 in life. It puts a blanket on all your emotions. You 64 1 don't feel the bad stuff, but you also don't really 2 experience the good stuff as well. 3 We both had counselling. It -- you know, it has 4 had that effect on all family and friends. 5 I mean, one of the worst things was finding out 6 who your friends actually are. I mean, it's lovely 7 for the -- the people who supported us are brilliant, 8 but I remember one case of us sitting at home and Kim 9 was trying to speak to one of the members of staff on 10 the phone and this member of staff was shouting abuse 11 at her down the phone, you know, telling her that she 12 wasn't -- Kim wasn't allowed to speak to her because 13 she has been suspended and Kim -- as I say -- 14 FACILITATOR: A member of staff where, sorry? Where was 15 that member of staff? 16 CAROL CHARLTON: Kim was on the phone with her. 17 FACILITATOR: In the post office? 18 CAROL CHARLTON: Yes. And this is it, it was somebody who 19 Kim had thought a lot of and had made a fuss of, 20 you know, her children and things like this, because 21 that was just Kim, and it's just -- it's really hard 22 because you -- I mean, to this day, we haven't been 23 able to go back up, really, to the village, you know, 24 Winlaton, where it is. 25 I know a lot of people when we have bumped into 65 1 them in shops and things, some of them have said to 2 our face, "You know, we never thought you had done 3 anything but, you know, there were all sorts of 4 rumours going round". And a lot of people, even, 5 you know, after -- even after sort of charges were 6 dropped and that, think, you know, "no smoke without 7 fire, you know, they have dropped the charges but it's 8 because she hid it so well". And it's just -- you 9 can't prove that you haven't done something. It's 10 very difficult to prove a negative. 11 FACILITATOR: Yes. So reflecting on all of that, how 12 would you sum up kind of the emotional impact it has 13 had on you, and I'm particularly interested in how it 14 has changed the people who you are, compared with the 15 ones who opened the post office. 16 CAROL CHARLTON: A lot really. I mean, some -- in some 17 ways it has changed us for the better. We are more 18 resilient now than we have ever been, you know. When 19 anything sort of crops up, we don't go to pieces about 20 it, we just look for solutions. We do, sort of, 21 problem solve a lot. 22 But it's hard to explain really, in that it's -- 23 it's a bit like, you know, when you've got a mobile 24 phone and you get a message to say that background 25 things are running and you feel like it's stealing 66 1 your power and it's stealing your data, well, the 2 Post Office stuff is like that in a way with us. It's 3 like sapped our energy over the years and it has -- we 4 don't trust people as much as we used to. You know, 5 it's -- it had all sorts of effects, I'm sure, on our 6 immune systems, and things like this, as well, because 7 long-term stress does. 8 Kim is now -- Kim found it difficult to get 9 a job at first but she is now doing care work. She 10 works in -- with adult support. She is a support 11 worker and she loves that and I think, without all of 12 this happening, she probably never would have even 13 thought about going into that field. So, you know, 14 there are mixed blessings there, there are in, 15 I think, everybody's lives. 16 But my big thing at the moment is this fact that 17 Marjorie -- you know, her mum has died and we still 18 owed her the money and it just -- and it's just not 19 fair and it's this sense of unfairness that gets you. 20 You sort of grow up thinking that everything is fair 21 in the UK, you know, the legal system is fair and 22 that, and to be honest, what the Post Office 23 solicitors did has just -- I don't know how they sleep 24 at night, I really don't. 25 FACILITATOR: Thank you, Carol. Thank you for sharing 67 1 that. 2 Wendy, I wonder if you could talk to Sir Wyn 3 a little bit about the impacts all of this had on you 4 and the outcomes and how you're feeling. 5 WENDY BURKE: I'm just very thankful that I haven't had 6 the experiences that other people have spoken about 7 and it's quite harrowing to listen to. 8 Over the years did I think I was making 9 mistakes? Yes, I probably did. When I look back was 10 it me all the time? No, it probably wasn't. In 11 hindsight, would I have changed anything I did? 12 I don't know, I just don't know. I had Mum and Dad, 13 as I say, they supported me, and latterly my partner 14 and my two boys, who are now older and I -- I do think 15 there was still a serious lack of trust for 16 Post Office management and that's a really sad place 17 to be because it could be so different. 18 We were told, and hands up, I was part of 19 Federation, I was an executive officer, and we were 20 told time and time again it was "robust" and that 21 word, still to this day, I find it difficult to use. 22 I can see changes within parts of the business, which 23 is a positive. I think there has to be a closure to 24 this and there has to be an outcome for all of those 25 that were impacted and, I mean, all of them, right 68 1 from the person that maybe didn't have a loss but 2 struggled with Post Office and the attitude, right 3 through to those ones that have had a huge impact on 4 their lives. 5 I just -- I just want to see a closure and 6 ultimately a proper apology from Post Office and 7 I think until that happens we will all be left sitting 8 in a kind of state of limbo to a certain extent. The 9 network -- it could have been so different. 10 FACILITATOR: You talk about the difference there. What 11 sort of consequences has it had for you financially 12 and in your wider life? 13 WENDY BURKE: Well, as I say, at the time I was a single 14 parent with my two kids. Financially, I struggled 15 every day. I was very lucky, I'm now living where 16 I was brought up, so I'm actually living in the same 17 building now where the post office was. I could -- 18 long story. I had a nine-year divorce and I couldn't 19 stay living in my house because I couldn't financially 20 do it, so my dad allowed me to move into what was the 21 empty property at the time with the two boys, so, 22 I mean, that was a huge -- that was huge for us. 23 Emotionally, I suppose, I'm a bit of a -- 24 I sometimes find it difficult to think about and feel 25 that you failed your family at times, but I didn't. 69 1 Sorry. 2 FACILITATOR: That's all right. I will come back to you 3 in a moment. 4 WENDY BURKE: Thank you. 5 FACILITATOR: So Paul, just -- I'm just interested -- if 6 you were able to sort of sum up financially, roughly, 7 what you think you put in that wasn't recognised by 8 the system, that you were just making up the 9 shortfalls. 10 PAUL BRANNLUND: Yes, well, it's quite difficult because 11 most of our records are gone. We still -- once you 12 get to seven years in retirement you've got no 13 paperwork. We had a little bit and we found 2,000 or 14 3,000 for the last 18 months that we were in the 15 Post Office, so I would estimate probably between 16 10,000 and 20,000 was put in, but that's over a period 17 of 16 years, so it was never big amounts -- well, 18 £150, £200. 19 I think for me -- you know, I have been very 20 lucky compared to many, many of my colleagues that we 21 had a thriving business, we had the money, we never 22 had the really big shortages, but I think I would 23 still like to know what the hell was going on with 24 Horizon because, like so many, many people for many 25 years, I thought it was just us making silly mistakes 70 1 and not being able to prove it one way or the other. 2 The other thing I often thought was that I had 3 staff with fingers in the till. You know, we did all 4 sorts of things with training to try and alleviate any 5 errors, so I just would like to know the truth because 6 I began to suspect that it wasn't just us because, 7 every time we had a shortage, we worked through what 8 we thought we were doing wrong but we still had 9 a shortage the following week and, you know, it -- so 10 I would like to know what was going on with Horizon, 11 really. 12 FACILITATOR: Can I just take you back to the period of 13 those events. I wonder -- presumably you had other 14 suppliers into your business, you know, other 15 companies, technically and otherwise. How did the 16 behaviour and performance of the Post Office compare 17 with "AN Other" big company who you were dealing with, 18 would you say, at that time? 19 PAUL BRANNLUND: We were dealing with a company called 20 Cost Cutter that were supplying our shop stock. They 21 had a very sophisticated computer system. We could -- 22 as I said earlier, we could actually go back into it 23 and they could support us. 24 I just felt that the Post Office Horizon System 25 was never up to much. I mean, do you know they never 71 1 even provided a till so that -- in all other EPOS 2 systems, your till is linked to your printer and your 3 screen and to complete a transaction you have to take 4 the cash or cheque or whatever it is, and then the 5 till opens but the Post Office never provided tills, 6 so, you know, there were lots of errors that you could 7 make yourself. 8 I keep on talking about the stack. I'm sure 9 everybody here knows you could leave things in the 10 stack and then pay it twice. If we had had a till, 11 that would have been alleviated but they never gave us 12 tills. It was a -- to me, it was never thought 13 through. I never felt as if there was somebody who 14 worked in the Post Office actually designed it. It 15 was typical big business, I guess. 16 FACILITATOR: If you take a step back from it, as you say 17 you are out of the system now, you say you feel lucky 18 that you weren't worse hit, if you want to think of it 19 this way, but how has it affected you in terms of your 20 kind of -- just your own mental landscape about how 21 you are now, compared with when you started out in 22 Cornwall? 23 PAUL BRANNLUND: Well, I think I was pretty disappointed 24 when I finished with the Post Office. I really didn't 25 warm towards them at all. I had a presentation from 72 1 them when I had done ten years' service. You used to 2 get a little certificate and a badge, and when 3 I finished I had done 18 years service with the 4 Post Office, which, to this day, has never been 5 acknowledged. There was no thank you, no nothing, 6 they just -- you just left and I found that rather 7 sad, especially as they -- I was told that, you know, 8 the majority of people don't do 18, 20-plus years. 9 Most people come and do a period and leave. 10 So I have no time for the Post Office. I don't 11 use the Post Office very often any more, other than -- 12 I use my local post office, but I don't listen to the 13 Post Office propaganda or anything like that. 14 FACILITATOR: Thank you. So, Sian, if we come back to you 15 for a moment, I know obviously we're still in the 16 midst of the Inquiry and everything and it was only 17 a few weeks ago you went to London, but how do you 18 feel the continued impact of this in your life, would 19 you say? 20 SIAN THOMAS: It's affected me a lot. Luckily, Hudgells 21 Solicitors have been very good with my dad because 22 I had been doing all his paperwork and I -- we have 23 become good friends with them all. They have 24 supported me as well, not just Dad. 25 I have had 13 psychiatry sessions, which I think 73 1 has helped a lot because the problem is you relive 2 things and I have been listening to the Inquiry as 3 well, not with just Dad. I have been listening to the 4 others and I thank God I still have my dad with me, 5 but my impact, I have lost a lot of friends regarding 6 this and like a lot of it is trust as well, you know. 7 The early days when Dad went to prison, it was 8 hard. It was really hard to adjust and especially 9 going home because my mum couldn't come with us at the 10 time to court, and saying to her that, you know, she 11 looked round and said "Where's Dad?" because that was 12 the reason of the plea bargain was, you know, "We 13 would drop the theft and go for false accounting and 14 we will give you a suspended sentence". 15 You know, unfortunately that never happened to 16 our family and to lots either but I'm lucky my mum and 17 dad are still here. They're celebrating 53 years 18 tomorrow. The Post Office have tried to break us but, 19 thank goodness, their love and trust has been so 20 strong. So we have been one of the lucky ones and we 21 have been open together and we have spoken about 22 everything to the grandchildren, to my eldest brother. 23 You know, we have all done this as a team and I'm 24 grateful to all of them, really. 25 FACILITATOR: Yes. I mean, it is lovely to hear all that 74 1 family strength, so, you know, it feels -- you can 2 feel it coming from you, so thank you. I just wonder 3 if, just for a minute, if you imagine that Horizon was 4 introduced and everything went perfectly, it all 5 worked, how would your life be different now? 6 SIAN THOMAS: Well, I would be living in Malltraeth on my 7 own. My mum and dad would still be in the post office 8 because, unfortunately, they had to get rid of the 9 post office. 10 Do you know what, in a way, there has been some 11 good points. I have made so many friends with 12 ex-subpostmasters and, truly, they are like a forever 13 friends, and that's a good thing that's come out of 14 it. But no, I think my dad would have retired when he 15 was 65 and not still worked in a garden centre and 16 been Father Christmas until he was 75, you know. 17 He has only just retired Christmas Eve, and he 18 needed that, but he would have -- he loves his 19 walking, the coastal walks and things around Anglesey. 20 He would have loved to have done that sooner but it 21 has -- he is not my same dad. He is Dad, don't get me 22 wrong but it has changed him, Horizon and the process 23 have changed -- but he is still the gentle giant he is 24 today and I respect him for carrying on the battle and 25 putting his face out there to the media, and all that, 75 1 you know, to continue fighting for all the 2 ex-postmasters. 3 There's not just the ones that have been through 4 the court, there's everybody to think about. 5 You know, they have all been through hell and back and 6 they should be compensated, and we need an end. My 7 dad is getting -- he's not getting any younger and 8 I hope to God that he is still around to see the end 9 of this. That's my prayer. 10 FACILITATOR: You say it has changed him. I just wonder 11 how has it changed you? 12 SIAN THOMAS: It has changed me a lot. I'm very 13 protective of my family. That's why I have sacrificed 14 and stayed at home. I have stopped my life. I have 15 not married. I'm -- but I tend to be overprotective 16 sometimes when we go out and people come to your face, 17 because some people are still not taking a grasp of 18 all this. My dad was in a local store a couple of 19 weeks ago and he turned round and says, "Well, you're 20 the lucky people getting away with it" and I'm 21 thinking, "What?" you know. 22 People think, "Oh, it's finished, it's over". 23 It's not over. You know, we still have a long way to 24 go but I'm very optimistic now with all the things 25 that are happening with the Inquiry that one day we 76 1 can -- you know, it's never going to go away. I'm 2 only 50. It's never going to leave me. It's still 3 going to haunt me. Even nightmares still happen when 4 I see somebody with handcuffs, it reminds me of Dad. 5 I get nightmares still. I can't even watch 6 a programme like Paddington, when he goes to jail, 7 I just start crying, and that's a cartoon supposed to 8 be. 9 But I have been at my mum and dad's (inaudible) 10 and it has hit me hard. I have been lucky with where 11 I work that they have been such a good support to me. 12 I work in a doctor's surgery and they have been 13 amazing with me, and my mum and dad, so, you know, 14 I can't fault them. But let's get a closure, 15 you know. I would like to hopefully enjoy -- Dad have 16 at least a bit more of his life to enjoy, instead of 17 wondering every morning, you know, "What's happening 18 today?" 19 It's an ongoing -- you know, get the Post Office 20 to pull their finger out; you know, give people proper 21 compensation for us to be able to live. We have just 22 lived, you know. We have scraped for everything that 23 we have, but it's life, unfortunately. 24 FACILITATOR: Just before I move on to the others in the 25 room, you used the word "sacrifice", a few times, that 77 1 you have had to sacrifice. I just wonder what you 2 feel you have missed out on as part of that sacrifice 3 in supporting your father? 4 SIAN THOMAS: Well, I wouldn't go out much, you know. 5 I was a middle-aged person, really, I could have gone 6 out to the pub and things, but I used to rather stay 7 at home with my family. It was the worry that, if 8 I went out, who would say something to me, you know, 9 because we have been very much in the limelight, 10 myself and Dad, for all the right reasons but a lot of 11 my -- a lot of people around Anglesey still haven't 12 got the grasp of what's actually happened in our 13 lives. So I really literally I have been going to 14 work, coming home and that's been my life, really, for 15 the last 16 years. 16 Working with Dad, doing his emails and finding 17 evidence, you know, paperwork for him and things like 18 that, so I have been his secretary for the last 19 16 years, to be honest with you. But I don't regret 20 it, but if you sent an email to Dad today you would be 21 lucky to get an answer in a year, you know. He is not 22 that technical minded, unfortunately, so that's why 23 I felt for all they have given me that I had to step 24 in and help him, and I will never regret that really. 25 FACILITATOR: No, no, I can see that. Thank you, Sian. 78 1 Wendy, I would like to just come back to you. 2 We've got about ten minutes to run and I just 3 wondered, Wendy, if you could kind of sum up where you 4 are now and perhaps what you would be saying to the 5 individuals in the organisations involved in all of 6 this, just to sort of give some final summaries to 7 Sir Wyn, so he can see how you are feeling now. 8 WENDY BURKE: I still currently work with Post Office 9 because I now have a role where I support postmasters 10 across the network, and I'm very passionate about it, 11 through the NFSP, and there have been mistakes in the 12 past. We've got to make sure they never happen again. 13 I want the Inquiry to find the truth and that is 14 the most important thing that has to come out of this, 15 and it's just not to be bits of it, it has to be the 16 whole truth and it has to be from all, involving -- 17 all involved, including the Royal Mail Group because, 18 ultimately, this happened under their watch. The 19 system was rolled out while Royal Mail Group CEO was 20 in place. 21 I would like to -- it was in the Crown network 22 first and we have to remember our colleagues that were 23 not even postmasters -- not postmasters, but were 24 Post Office employees that suffered under all of this. 25 The CEO and management of Post Office through 79 1 the years, we've got to hold them to account. We've 2 got to. And, ultimately, the Government ministers who 3 oversaw year after year and changed so many times. We 4 even had two in one year that have not taken 5 responsibility for it. 6 They are ultimately responsible and they've got 7 to stand up and be counted along with the rest. 8 Fujitsu, who seem to have been very quiet 9 throughout, I really hope that they are held to 10 account as well. 11 Post Office, I think from that time, showed 12 a complete dereliction of duty. They allowed these 13 people, many, many people to have a considerable 14 impact on their life, whatever that impact was. 15 Right now, I know that Nick Read is saying that 16 he is resetting relationships. Is that really 17 happening? I think there's too many layers of middle 18 management within the company still and I don't think 19 he is actually -- if he is hearing the truth, is he 20 actually, actively acting to fix it? I very much 21 doubt it. 22 In fact, I was quite thrown when I heard that 23 some of the Post Office management who left with money 24 in their back pockets through various schemes are now 25 back in the business, even working in the HSS scheme, 80 1 and I just -- I just couldn't take it in. I really 2 was quite taken aback by it. 3 Going forward, as it has been said, there needs 4 to be a closure and there needs to be an outcome and 5 that needs to be sooner rather than later because 6 there are still families out there that are suffering 7 dreadfully. 8 I'm very lucky, as you know, and I have already 9 said, I had loads of support and wasn't impacted in 10 the way that many others weren't, but we need closure. 11 We just need to hear -- to find the truth. 12 FACILITATOR: Yes, so that -- could you describe to 13 Sir Wyn then what closure would look like from your 14 specific point of view? 15 WENDY BURKE: That's a really good question but very 16 difficult to answer. Post Office need to change 17 completely from the company that they are now to a 18 company that cares, that listens and takes on board -- 19 and really takes on board -- people's views, where 20 postmasters are remunerated properly for what they do 21 and the work is done within communities is 22 appreciated. 23 Government really, really need to take a look 24 and actually step up and be accountable for what is 25 happening within the network. Paying lip service is 81 1 no good, absolutely not. 2 Fujitsu, really? They knew. They absolutely 3 did know that these things were happening and yet, 4 time and time again, when they're challenged, "No 5 there's nothing wrong with this system". Now, our 6 postmasters went to jail. Are there questions around 7 what should happen? 8 As to the outcome, I don't know. I think we've 9 got to lay our trust with Sir Wyn and allow him to 10 make that decision. 11 FACILITATOR: Thank you. 12 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Before we move on, you did mention the 13 Historical Shortfall Scheme. I take it that you would 14 be eligible to apply for that scheme. Have you 15 applied? 16 WENDY BURKE: I did, Sir Wyn. I got a small payout. 17 I think a difficulty with the scheme is that most of 18 us really have destroyed any documentation as far 19 back -- I mean, I know when I left the office, I kept 20 my stuff for a few years and destroyed it, so all 21 I really had to go on was memory and a couple of bits. 22 We quite often paid the money before we rolled over, 23 so it didn't show in the accounting systems in 24 Chesterfield. So a couple of the bigger ones I had 25 had to rollover and send down, because I just didn't 82 1 have the finance to pay it and then we were given the 2 opportunity to pay it back over six months, so that's 3 all I had to go on. 4 I know there was an awful lot more, to be 5 honest, and I don't, for one minute, think that I will 6 ever know. 7 Yes, we had overages, usually quite small in 8 comparison to some of the shortages. Can we blame it 9 all on Horizon? I don't suppose we can because 10 everybody can make mistakes, you know, there are 11 errors that can be made, but we couldn't find those 12 errors because the system wasn't an open system where 13 we could actually find them. Yes, it -- yes, I did 14 and yes I got a payout. 15 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Right, and before Jerome wraps it up 16 with Ms Charlton and Mr Brannlund, can I ask him: you 17 would also be eligible to make an application under 18 that scheme, have you done so? 19 PAUL BRANNLUND: Yes, I did make an application and, like 20 Wendy, the biggest problem was ascertaining what I had 21 put in. Because of, as I say earlier, the rules on 22 disposing of documentation, I only have 18 months. So 23 at the time, I think I had two years of records left 24 and, on the basis of that, I did make a claim, yes, 25 which they have paid me. 83 1 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, all right. 2 Well, I may say something more about that in 3 a few minutes but I will let Jerome wrap up this part 4 of the session first. 5 FACILITATOR: Thank you, Sir Wyn. So, Paul, if I were to 6 ask you to give one objective to Sir Wyn to take 7 forward in his Inquiry, what would you be requesting? 8 PAUL BRANNLUND: To get to the truth really, to find out 9 what we all suspected, what was going on with Horizon 10 and, if it was a cover-up, to get to the bottom of it. 11 FACILITATOR: Fair enough, thank you. 12 Carol, so finally, if we could just come to you 13 for your sort of final reflections and, again, your 14 request -- anything you would like to put before 15 Sir Wyn to take into the Inquiry stages. 16 CAROL CHARLTON: I think more than anything else I think 17 everybody needs to feel that they have had justice. 18 The justice system, as used by the Post Office, let 19 everybody down and that needs to be addressed. It's 20 so important and so fundamental to our, sort of, 21 citizenship of the UK, and that, that we trust our 22 systems. We were let down. 23 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Ms Charlton, can I ask you, so to 24 speak, on behalf of Ms Whiley, to confirm, I think, my 25 understanding, but you tell me if I've got it wrong: 84 1 because she was a member of the 555, she is excluded 2 from -- at the moment, from the Historical Shortfall 3 Scheme or any other compensation scheme? 4 CAROL CHARLTON: Yes. 5 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Because she wasn't convicted but had 6 her case dropped, she is not eligible, either, for 7 an interim payment, is that the position, as you 8 understand it? 9 CAROL CHARLTON: That is correct. 10 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, fine. Thank you. 11 FACILITATOR: Right, thank you. That brings us to the end 12 of the two hours and I think Sir Wyn and I probably 13 could have had two hours with each of you to hear what 14 you have had to say, but thank you so much, all of 15 you, for sharing with us and with each other and with 16 the wider world. 17 Do any of you want to make any final comments 18 that you would like Sir Wyn to hear? It is important 19 that you've got the chance to say anything. 20 Anything else, Sian, that perhaps you would like 21 to say in closure? 22 SIAN THOMAS: I would be interested to find out why -- 23 well, a couple of days before Dad was sent to jail, 24 they knew that he hadn't taken the money but nobody 25 would stand up and say anything, so, basically, we 85 1 have had to live with this behind us for the last 2 16 years but my question is: why? Why did they send 3 an innocent person to jail when they knew? 4 That's how Dad got his limb 1 and limb 2. 5 Why -- why did they -- they have not just ruined my 6 dad's life, they have ruined the whole family's life, 7 really. The impact has been horrendous on us all, to 8 be fair. But I need to know why. Why send him to 9 jail when they knew, you know, four days before that, 10 he was innocent? 11 FACILITATOR: Thank you, Sian, and thank you for 12 everything you have shared. 13 SIAN THOMAS: Thank you all. 14 FACILITATOR: Does anybody else have any final comments 15 they would like to give to Sir Wyn? 16 WENDY BURKE: I think, from me, really, just a thank you 17 for taking time to listen to us and, again, we're 18 putting our trust in him for the outcome of this. 19 I know it's been harrowing for many but just to thank 20 you for everything. 21 CAROL CHARLTON: Yes, thank you very much. 22 SIAN THOMAS: Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 23 PAUL BRANNLUND: Thank you very much. 24 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Because I get the last word, it is 25 I who should be thanking you because, without people 86 1 like you, there would be no Inquiry and I wouldn't be 2 doing anything. So it is because you were prepared to 3 come forward and speak that we have a meaningful 4 Inquiry. 5 Now, I want to tell you something that -- just 6 to put the seed in your heads, so to speak. Because 7 this is in the nature of a focus group, where we have 8 been exploring things, I haven't seen any written 9 evidence from you, like a witness statement or 10 anything like that, and you are probably aware that 11 many people have made witness statements and obviously 12 some of those have given evidence at the public 13 hearings, but in the future -- in the not too distant 14 future, I may ask members of the legal team, or even 15 the Secretariat team, to invite you to make witness 16 statements about some of the things that you have told 17 me this morning. 18 Now, you may know that I have powers to compel 19 people to make witness statements. I wouldn't dream 20 of doing that in your cases. It's a purely voluntary 21 thing, as far as I'm concerned, but I just wanted to 22 alert you to the fact that I may do that in the future 23 because -- obviously because I didn't know in advance 24 what you were going to say, I couldn't judge how 25 important it was going to be and so now that I know 87 1 what you've got to say, some of the things are very 2 important so I may wish to ask you to make a witness 3 statement in the future, so please don't be surprised 4 if you get that request. As I say, if you don't want 5 to, that's fine, but if you feel able to, that would 6 be good. 7 So finally, thank you very much. Good afternoon 8 to you all. Prynhawn da to you, Ms Thomas. I look 9 forward to the next focus group session, which I think 10 will be next Friday. So thank you all very much and 11 I'm now going to depart and mute myself and if you 12 want to have one or two minutes having a chat to each 13 other on this very good facility, then please do so. 14 SIAN THOMAS: Diolch. 15 CAROL CHARLTON: Thank you. 16 PAUL BRANNLUND: Thank you very much. 17 WENDY BURKE: Thank you. 18 FACILITATOR: Thank you, Sir Wyn. We will stop the live 19 stream there, but thank you everybody. 20 (12.05 pm) 21 (The session adjourned) 22 23 24 25 88