1 Wednesday, 2 March 2022 2 (10.00 am) 3 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Ms Kennedy. 4 MS KENNEDY: Chair, our first witness today is Mrs Sarah 5 Osolinski. 6 SARAH OSOLINSKI (sworn) 7 Questioned by MS KENNEDY 8 Q. My name is Ruth Kennedy and I ask questions on behalf 9 of the Inquiry. 10 Do you have a copy of your witness statement 11 there? 12 A. I do. 13 Q. I think it should be dated 3 February 2022? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. If you turn to the last page, which I think is 16 page 17. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Is that your signature? 19 A. It is. 20 Q. Have you read this statement through recently? 21 A. I have. 22 Q. Is it true to the best of your knowledge and belief? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. I'm going to start by asking a couple of introductory 25 questions about you. 1 1 How old are you now? 2 A. 65. 3 Q. And how long have you been married? 4 A. 44 years. 5 Q. How many children do you have? 6 A. Three. 7 Q. Could you describe for the Chair what types of jobs 8 you did before working for the Post Office? 9 A. Yes. When I left school I joined the Midland Bank. 10 I worked there until I had my first child. I didn't 11 go straight back. I worked in a nursery school and in 12 Asda supermarket, then I went back to the bank and 13 I stayed there until I was 40 and then we bought the 14 Post Office and the retail newsagent. 15 Q. What types of things were you doing in the bank? 16 A. Oh all sorts. Working on the counter doing the 17 remittances, sorting out standing orders, direct 18 debits, looking after the computer. All sorts of 19 things. 20 Q. Why did you decide to leave banking? 21 A. Because it changed. It changed from what I felt was 22 a service industry, which was customers led, to being 23 a sales industry where we were all given quotas about 24 how many mortgages we should try to sell, how many 25 insurance policies we should try to sell and it was 2 1 not something I enjoyed anymore. 2 Q. So why did you decide to buy a post office? 3 A. Because that went back to the customer-led type of 4 work that I enjoyed. I enjoyed the interaction 5 between customers. I enjoyed listening to them. 6 I enjoyed helping with problems, because they see you 7 as someone they can come to with their problems, and 8 it was just a different -- it's a whole change of life 9 when you buy a post office and a newsagent. You 10 become part of the community. It's like having a huge 11 extended family. 12 Q. I think you say in your statement you became 13 subpostmistress of Gaer? 14 A. Gaer Park. 15 Q. Gaer Park? 16 A. Should be "Gire", for Welsh. 17 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, I was going to jump in then. 18 A. Yes, but they all call it "Gair" in Newport. 19 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, I'm sure they do, yes. 20 MS KENNEDY: You said that was in Newport. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And was that in around October 1996? 23 A. It was. 24 Q. How did you finance that purchase? 25 A. We sold our house in Cardiff and we were paying 89,950 3 1 and we took out a business loan for 43,000 and paid 2 the balance from the proceeds of the house. We also 3 had to have a business overdraft of £7,500 to pay for 4 stock in the shop. 5 Q. What other businesses did you run from the same 6 premises? 7 A. It was a retail newsagent with a little store, you 8 know, greetings cards, lots of magazines and basics, 9 kitchen towel, toilet roll, tins, bottles of bleach. 10 You know, bits and pieces, and lots of stationery. 11 Q. How many assistants did you have? 12 A. Well, all three daughters worked for us part-time when 13 we first moved in when they were in college and high 14 school, and we had one early morning assistant in the 15 shop, and one assistant in the Post Office, and myself 16 and my husband both worked full time. 17 Q. How did you feel about working for the Post Office 18 when you took over? 19 A. When I first started, good. It just seemed like 20 a perfect fit but I soon learned that they don't 21 actually care about their subpostmasters. They don't 22 give you the care that an employer would normally give 23 an employee because they don't see you as employees, 24 you're just -- what do they call us -- agents. So 25 we're on our own really. Yes, there was a helpline, 4 1 but in the early days I have to say there was a line 2 manager but they kind of got phased out and you were 3 left on your own for the majority of the time. 4 Q. When was Horizon introduced in your branch? 5 A. I think it was late 1999, going into 2000. I can't be 6 more specific, I'm sorry. 7 Q. What training did you receive at that time? 8 A. A day and a half in a hotel somewhere and the rest of 9 the -- I think my eldest daughter and my husband got 10 a day. I had the extra half day to go through the 11 balancing procedure and then after that we had someone 12 in the office with us to watch that we were doing it 13 properly. 14 Q. What did the trainers tell you was the right way to 15 balance? 16 A. They specifically said to balance to nil. So you take 17 a snapshot and if you're short or over, you deal with 18 it and then you actually balance to nil and roll over. 19 Q. How did you find using Horizon? 20 A. Well, it seemed really easy to start off with. We 21 still had paper, we still had dockets, we still had 22 cheques and it was fairly easy to balance. But once 23 the pension books were phased out, it became a lot 24 more difficult. You couldn't check back on anything 25 because there was nothing to check back. Everything 5 1 was on the computer and we noticed that we were 2 getting regular shortages from that time. 3 Q. What about Horizon Online? Was that introduced into 4 your branch? 5 A. That was the training that we were having at the time 6 of my suspension. We had someone in to do the 7 training during the day and at the end of the day she 8 said can I do a cash check? 9 Q. How quickly did you notice shortfalls or discrepancies 10 appearing on the system? 11 A. Oh, I can't be completely specific because I can't 12 remember the date that the pension books were phased 13 out but it was around that time. It was when the 14 Post Office card account was introduced and we weren't 15 able to check anything back. 16 Q. You mentioned the helpline a moment ago. How did you 17 find using that? 18 A. Sometimes helpful but more often than not they weren't 19 able to help. I didn't ring them that much because 20 I felt quite alone in the office. My husband had had 21 a massive heart attack and I was trying to not explain 22 to him about the problems we were having in the 23 Post Office -- excuse me. But the helpline either 24 couldn't help and just said pay the money in or they'd 25 take you through what sounded like a script and your 6 1 problem would double in front of you. 2 So I didn't call them very often. I called them 3 if there was something that one of us had done by 4 mistake and I needed to reverse it, for them to give 5 me the authorisation. Other than that, I didn't 6 bother. 7 Q. What would you do when you noticed a shortfall or 8 a discrepancy? 9 A. Pay it back. 10 Q. How often would you put money into the Post Office? 11 A. Most weeks. 12 Q. Can you give us an idea what sums -- the range of sums 13 we're talking about? 14 A. Anything from 90 to just over £1,000 initially. 15 Q. How did you feel about this at the time? 16 A. Awful. I dreaded balance day, absolutely dreaded it. 17 Q. How much altogether do you estimate you paid into the 18 Post Office? 19 A. Oh, I think it's at least 25,000 -- at least. 20 Q. You mention in your statement that you made a list of 21 the payments that you made? 22 A. I did. 23 Q. Who did you show that list to? 24 A. My Federation rep. 25 Q. What did your Federation rep say? 7 1 A. It was when we were going into my return to unit 2 interview after I'd been suspended and I showed her my 3 list, and I'd only been doing it for two years -- 4 should have done it for a lot longer -- and she looked 5 at it and she said, "Don't mention this in your 6 interview". And I said, "Why not? Because it shows 7 there is problem", because by that time I was 8 suspicious of the system and she said, "No", she said, 9 "They'll shut you down straight away". So I had to go 10 into the interview and not mention the problems I was 11 having, even though I was going down because I had 12 a problem. It was very difficult. 13 Q. You mention in your statement an audit I think in 14 mid-2000s which showed a shortfall of £230? 15 A. Mmm. 16 Q. Could you tell us a bit about what that audit was 17 like. 18 A. That one wasn't too bad because it was a difference 19 that I was used to. They said that some of it was 20 stock. I find that hard to believe because two of us 21 checked the stock. I would check one stock and my 22 assistant would double-check what I'd done and vice 23 versa, but it was around the £200 mark that I was used 24 to paying back by that time so it didn't surprise me. 25 That audit wasn't stressful in any way. 8 1 Q. I think you go on to mention an audit in June 2010 and 2 that's after someone came to conduct Horizon Online 3 training; is that right? 4 A. That's correct, yes -- on 4 June 2010. 5 Q. Could you tell us about what happened on 4 June. 6 A. Yes, certainly. A young woman came to do this Horizon 7 Online training and at the end of the day she asked if 8 she could do a cash check. I said, "Yes, you can but 9 it will be short", and she said, "Why is that", and 10 I said, "Because I had a difference in March of 11 £1,872.44 which I wasn't able to resolve and wasn't 12 able to repay because I had been repaying multiple 13 shortages before that and I had just run out of funds, 14 my overdraft was at its limit, so I just kept rolling 15 it over, and I had by that time got it down to 1,560". 16 And she said, "Okay, I've got to phone my 17 manager". She phoned the manager. The manager spoke 18 to me and said, "I'm suspending you for false 19 accounting". 20 Q. I think at that time you mentioned there might have 21 been an explanation for the shortfall to do with 22 a customer who phoned? 23 A. Yes, that was a bit of a red herring. He -- well, 24 I didn't speak to him. One of the assistants in the 25 shop spoke to him and he said that he had been 9 1 overpaid but I really don't think that he would have 2 been overpaid by nearly £2,000. It just -- I just 3 can't imagine that that would happen. I can imagine 4 £10 or £20, but we looked everywhere and I was hoping 5 that the Post Office would be able to do some sort of 6 investigation into my accounts, you know, from their 7 end but they never did. 8 Q. What happened to the branch on 4 June? 9 A. It was closed. 10 Q. And so you couldn't go back into the branch? 11 A. No. 12 Q. I think you then mention audits scheduled for 7 June? 13 A. The Monday, yes. 14 Q. Who carried out that audit? 15 A. Oh, one chap was called Paul. I can't remember the 16 other chap's name. I know they were training officers 17 and they took five hours. I had to be present the 18 whole time and they came up with over £2,000. I then 19 realised that the two women that had closed the 20 Post Office didn't secure -- we had what's called 21 a combi-till in the shop and I had been in a complete 22 state of distress on Friday when I was suspended but 23 they didn't check the combi-till and when I went to 24 look there was £2,000 in there and then there was 25 another 200 and something which was the normal 10 1 shortfall which I paid in cash. 2 I had already on Friday, 4 June, put a cheque in 3 for 1,560 to cover what I knew was going to be short, 4 so I didn't actually owe the Post Office any money at 5 this time until the shortage of 200 and something, 6 which I paid them in cash. 7 Q. What did the auditors say to you that you highlighted 8 there was money in another location? 9 A. They told me not to worry about it. They said, "I'll 10 watch you go and get it", and I brought it to them and 11 they said, "That's great. Thank you, Sarah". 12 Q. So what did you think would come of that? 13 A. Nothing. I thought -- I had no reason to believe that 14 they suspected me of anything at that time. It was 15 only later and in the audit they pointed out that the 16 notes in the combi-till were all facing the same way. 17 Because of my banking experience I'm old school. 18 When I count notes I put them all the same way. I'm 19 the same now, in my purse everything faces the same 20 way, right way up, facing out, and that's how I'd 21 always done it. But they said because the money in 22 the safe which we'd just had delivered wasn't 23 presented in that way that somehow there was something 24 wrong with the ones that were. 25 Q. And you say you found this out later. This was the 11 1 report of the audit; is that right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. How did all of this make you feel? 4 A. Hmm, small, guilty, weak. 5 Q. Why did you feel guilty? 6 A. Because I felt like I'd let everyone down. I felt 7 like somehow I'd got it completely wrong, that maybe 8 the stress of my husband's illness had made me make 9 mistakes. I knew in my heart that that couldn't be so 10 because I wasn't the only one working in the 11 Post Office and we were all checking and rechecking 12 all the time. There was just nothing to find. And 13 I knew logically that I couldn't be making mistakes 14 for around £200 every week. It just doesn't make 15 sense. 16 So I became a hermit for eight weeks. I didn't 17 go outside the house and the doctor very kindly signed 18 me on to the sick. I have a condition called 19 fibromyalgia which is exacerbated by stress and I was 20 quite poorly for quite a long time, even after I went 21 back into the shop. 22 Q. You say in your statement you were interviewed by the 23 Post Office later in June, on the 22nd; is that right? 24 A. Yes, it's called an RTU. 25 Q. Who interviewed you? 12 1 A. A chap called Gary Adderley and two others. He had 2 two people with him as far as I know because it was 3 his first week on the job. Worst experience of my 4 life. 5 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Sorry, could you tell me what RTU 6 stands for. 7 A. Return to unit. 8 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Fine, thank you. 9 A. In the hope that Post Office would allow you to 10 continue your work. 11 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: So this was an interview with the 12 possibility of you going back to work. This wasn't to 13 do with criminal proceedings or anything like that? 14 A. No, I was never prosecuted. 15 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: No. I follow that, thank you. 16 MS KENNEDY: Why do you say it was the worst experience of 17 your life? 18 A. Because it was obvious from the outset that they had 19 made up their minds of my guilt. 20 Q. What representation did you have? 21 A. I had a Federation rep and a trainee Federation rep 22 who was -- they were both subpostmasters and the 23 trainee was actually a former police inspector. 24 Q. How well supported did you feel by them? 25 A. Initially, well. My Federation rep was very 13 1 experienced. She got very high up in the Federation 2 eventually and she seemed quite confident that I would 3 be back in my office. 4 Subsequently, when I went for my appeal hearing, 5 it was just the trainee because the Federation rep had 6 gone off to have an operation and he was good too but 7 it was -- once my contract was terminated, it was just 8 abandoned, they don't ring to say how are you or how 9 are you coping, nothing. You don't get anything. 10 Q. What did the Post Office ask you in the interview? 11 A. What I'd done with the money? Why was I false 12 accounting? I explained that I did the work as they'd 13 instructed me to do and they told me no what I was 14 doing was false accounting, and that the correct way 15 to do it was X, and they just badgered and badgered 16 and bullied and bullied, and I just felt pummelled. 17 Q. You mentioned your contract being terminated. I think 18 that happened on 28 June? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What was the reason given for your termination? 21 A. False accounting. 22 Q. You mentioned you appealed? 23 A. Mmm. 24 Q. What was the outcome of that appeal? 25 A. Same. 14 1 Q. I'm now going to ask you some questions about the 2 impact that all of this has had on you. First, 3 looking at the financial, what happened to your 4 business? 5 A. Well, the Post Office asked if I wanted the 6 Post Office to stay open and I said yes because, you 7 know, the community was relying on it. So they 8 installed a relief company called New Rose. They came 9 in and did their own audit and found discrepancies in 10 the audit that the Post Office had carried out and 11 paid me some money back, and they appointed my 12 assistant as manager. And the first week that she was 13 in charge she had a £900 shortfall which she was told 14 she had to pay back. 15 And they paid a nominal rent to us, about -- 16 well, just under half of what the rent on our lease 17 was, so we struggled on for a while but because -- 18 people avoided the Post Office because I wasn't in 19 there. They thought they were supporting me by not 20 supporting the Post Office but of course if they don't 21 come to the Post Office they don't use the retail. So 22 we got to the point where we couldn't afford to keep 23 going, so our lease was actually up by then, so we 24 took the decision to walk away. So we lost any sale 25 proceeds that we would have had for the business and 15 1 obviously future salary. 2 Q. What about your future -- I mean, what would you 3 estimate you lost in terms of earnings? 4 A. Something over 600,000. I was on 51,000 a year at the 5 time and I was 54, I think. So I had many, many years 6 ahead of me. 7 Q. How long did you intend to run the Post Office? 8 A. Oh, forever. I imagined myself as a little old lady 9 you know behind the counter. I just enjoyed it, you 10 know. It was just part of our lives by that time. 11 Q. You also mention in your statement a bank overdraft. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Could you tell us about that please. 14 A. Yes, it started off at 7,500 and by the time we walked 15 away from the business it was 25,000. 16 Q. What about your home? 17 A. Well, we let it out initially, moved in with our 18 daughter and son-in-law and their two children. And 19 then that was just too stressful, so we sold the house 20 and used the proceeds to pay off our debts and some 21 debts that our younger daughter had accrued, and then 22 we were lucky enough to be given a Housing Association 23 bungalow which we now live in. 24 Q. What was the impact of all this on your reputation 25 within the community? 16 1 A. Our community was nothing but supportive. Nobody -- 2 well, I say nobody. The vast majority of people 3 didn't believe that I had stolen money. I'm quite 4 sure that there were people out there that avoided us 5 and thought we were guilty but, yes, it makes you put 6 your head down. It's an awful, awful feeling and it 7 stays with you for a long time. 8 Q. You've also mentioned the impact that this has had on 9 your health. Could you tell us a bit more about that. 10 A. Yeah, I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia the year after 11 my husband had his heart attack. Apparently it can be 12 caused by a shock and he was only 48 when that 13 happened to him and it left him quite disabled and 14 he's had many, many interventions since and he's, you 15 know, quite disabled now. 16 And fibromyalgia has multiple symptoms. You 17 have chronic pain, you have depression, you have 18 anxiety, you have burning sensation in your muscles 19 and the fatigue can be overwhelming. There are days 20 when I can't get out of bed and when this happened, 21 I just went into free-fall with it and it took me 22 eight weeks to just get myself together enough to go 23 back into the shop. And the support we received from 24 the community was what kept me going. 25 Q. How was your sleep affected by the shortfalls and -- 17 1 A. I either slept 24 hours in a row or not at all. 2 Q. What was the impact of this on your family? 3 A. They were all -- we've three daughters and one 4 grandson at the time who was four. Obviously, he was 5 oblivious and he kept us all going. 6 Our girls were just quite traumatised to see 7 their mother treated in that way and they still now 8 can't -- they're quite angry and two of them suffer 9 with mental health issues and I'm sure that that was 10 exacerbated by the way that I was treated. 11 Q. What about the impact on your relationship with your 12 husband? 13 A. Well, we separated for a time but when he had his 14 heart attack we reconciled because I just couldn't see 15 him like that and we'd been married for a long time by 16 then anyway and there was too much love there. But, 17 yes, it wasn't easy for quite a while because I wasn't 18 easy to live with. 19 Q. What would you like from the Post Office now? 20 A. Restitution. I would like a personal apology for 21 everyone. I would like a written personal apology for 22 everyone because saying yes, there is a problem with 23 the computer system when you're forced to do so 24 because the courts have proved it is not really an 25 admission that you knew there was something wrong and 18 1 that you had been cruel and vindictive to so many 2 people and ruined so many people's lives. I'm not 3 broken but there are a lot of us who are broken. 4 We all need help financially now. Nobody is 5 living the high life. We're all struggling and we 6 shouldn't be. It's not fair. 7 Q. Is there anything else you would like to say to the 8 Chair? 9 A. I have a short statement, Chair, if that's okay. 10 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Of course, yes. 11 A. Thank you for the opportunity. 12 I can only speak for my own family when I say 13 this whole experience has been a living nightmare. 14 For 12 years we have watched Post Office and 15 Government prevaricate and throw money at preventing 16 us from achieving justice and I know many of us have 17 suffered for much longer. 18 No-one at the top of Post Office has properly 19 apologised or faced prosecution for the lies they have 20 told. They have all received large bonuses when they 21 moved on whilst we were left to survive on benefits or 22 low paid jobs, our characters ruined and confidence 23 crushed. Whilst this Inquiry may get us answers to 24 some of our questions we need help financially now. 25 How long can Post Office hide from the 19 1 responsibility of paying proper compensation to us 2 all? Thank you. 3 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: On that last topic, I think you were 4 one of the Claimants in the Group Litigation. 5 A. I was one of the 555. 6 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Like everyone else who has come before 7 me who were Claimants you received some compensation. 8 A. Yes. 9 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: But it doesn't compare with what you 10 think you properly should get. 11 A. No. 12 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: That's it, in summary, isn't it? 13 A. That's the bottom line. 14 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: All right. Thank you very much. 15 A. Thank you so much. 16 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you for coming. Don't rush away. 17 A. I'm sorry. 18 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Just for the moment, let's find out 19 what's happening next. 20 MS KENNEDY: Our next witness is Mr John Bowman who is 21 going to be a remote witness. 22 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Okay. So we will take a ten-minute 23 break since we have gone through this lady's evidence 24 reasonably swiftly, so we will take a ten-minute break 25 and thank you again for coming. 20 1 (10.28 am) 2 (A short break) 3 (10.41 am) 4 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Good morning, Mr Bowman. Can you hear 5 me? 6 A. Sir Wyn, yes, thank you. 7 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Can you see me? 8 A. I can. 9 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Well, that's very good. I will now 10 hand you over to these ladies who will take you 11 through your evidence. 12 MS KENNEDY: Mr Bowman, I'm just going to hand you over to 13 the usher, Jane. 14 JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN (affirmed) 15 Questioned by MS KENNEDY 16 Q. Mr Bowman, as you know, my name's Ruth Kennedy and 17 I ask questions on behalf of the Inquiry. Could you 18 confirm your full name please? 19 A. John Anthony Bowman. 20 Q. Have you got a copy of your witness statement there? 21 A. Yes, I have. 22 Q. It should be dated 7 February 2022; is that right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And if you look at the last page, which I think should 25 be page 14, is that your signature there? 21 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Have you read through this statement recently? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And is it true to the best of your knowledge and 5 belief? Sorry, did you say yes? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Sorry. I'm going to start by asking a few 8 introductory questions about you. What age are you 9 now? 10 A. 73. 11 Q. And how long have you been married? 12 A. 53 years in two weeks' time. 13 Q. How many children do you have? 14 A. We have three children, twins -- the oldest two are 15 twins -- and younger daughter, six grandchildren, and 16 one great-grandchild. 17 Q. What types of jobs did you do before you became 18 a subpostmaster? 19 A. I was a senior production manager at Sony UK, which 20 manufactured televisions and computer monitors, and 21 I was a licensee. 22 Q. Why were you drawn to work for the Post Office? 23 A. We'd been working in the licensed trade for the 24 previous few years which we thoroughly loved. It was 25 mixing with people. We're both people people. The 22 1 thing with the pub trade is we were coming up to 2 50 years of age then, 48/49. The pub trade is 3 a fantastic trade but it's long, long hours. People 4 don't see the hours you put in. Although the pub 5 doesn't open until 11 or 12 o'clock from 9 o'clock you 6 are either at the cash and carry or you're cleaning 7 lines, you're working from 9 in the morning until 8 midnight, all weekends, holidays, Christmases, New 9 Year. We now had just had our first grandchildren and 10 we wanted to spend more time with the family, have 11 more time to ourselves work a 9 to 5 job, weekends and 12 holidays away. 13 Q. Why specifically the Post Office of all the 9 to 5 14 jobs? 15 A. We looked at several different types of -- we wanted 16 our own business. We wanted to continue our own 17 business. We looked at several different types. The 18 Post Office, first of all it was the most regular 19 income because you knew roughly what you were going to 20 be earning and we would have the shop on top of that. 21 It was the most reputable of businesses that you could 22 think of. If you were going to work in conjunction 23 with somebody it would be the Post Office that you 24 would want to work with and again it was continuing 25 this idea of working with people being sociable and 23 1 interacting. 2 Q. You say in your statement you became subpostmaster of 3 Brynna Post Office. Have I said that correctly? 4 A. Good pronunciation, well done. 5 Q. I might have had a little bit of help. I think you 6 took over that Post Office in around May 1998; is that 7 right? 8 A. That's correct, yes. 9 Q. Who did you plan to give the Post Office to 10 eventually? 11 A. Our younger daughter was going to take over the 12 Post Office eventually. We'd come to an agreement 13 whereby she was saving up and she was originally going 14 to buy the building, the freehold, and she would take 15 over the Post Office. We would continue to have the 16 retail side for a while and after she bought the 17 freehold, when she was in with the Post Office salary, 18 she would then pay us for the Post Office element of 19 the business so she could pay that while she was in 20 the Post Office earning. So it was a way of her -- it 21 was the only way she could do it financially to 22 actually do it that way, that she starts off just 23 buying the freehold and then over the next number of 24 years she would pay the Post Office element of it. 25 Q. So you were planning for many years in the future it 24 1 sounds? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you remember when Horizon was introduced in your 4 branch? 5 A. It was beginning of 2002. 6 Q. What training did you receive on Horizon? 7 A. We went for, basically, I think it was a week's 8 training. It was either four days or a week's 9 training in Post Office offices in Tremains Road in 10 Bridgend. 11 Q. How did you find that training? 12 A. It was very basic. It was really all about navigating 13 around the system, showing you where to go from stamps 14 to pensions to navigating, and then explaining you how 15 to up-sell and you were doing somebody's foreign 16 currency how you would try to sell them insurance at 17 the same time. So we spent a lot of time on that. 18 But basically it was navigating round the system, 19 getting used to the system which was fairly basic, 20 really. 21 Q. How did you find using Horizon? 22 A. The system itself as we were trained, it's a simple 23 system. It's very easy to navigate around, it's all 24 there in front of you on the screen. Problems arose 25 with transactions that you'd done rarely, which in 25 1 a small Post Office is things like foreign currency 2 and insurance, then you would have to refer to the 3 manual which was provided, which wasn't very 4 user-friendly. So it did the basics, stamps, 5 pensions, giros, very simple and easy to navigate. 6 Q. How soon after you took over did you start to notice 7 shortfalls and discrepancies? 8 A. Nothing when we took over. It was paper-based. It 9 was back when the Horizon system was introduced. 10 Q. I'm sorry, yes, quite right. 11 A. It was more or less straight away. It was from week 1 12 we were getting small discrepancies. 13 Q. What would you do when you noticed those 14 discrepancies? 15 A. We made them good as they came up. They were usually 16 from around £100 to £250/300. It was a new system. 17 You expected that there were going to be problems to 18 begin with. 19 Q. Were you -- (unclear: overspeaking) 20 Sorry, finish what you were going to say. 21 A. I was just saying you were told it was your 22 responsibility to make good the losses and you just 23 made good the losses as they came along. 24 Q. Did you use the helpline? 25 A. We did use the helpline. To begin with we found them 26 1 understanding, not very helpful, not very efficient. 2 They seemed to be just following an algorithm, "Have 3 you done this? Have you tried this? Have you done 4 that? Have you done another balance?" And it was -- 5 it didn't explain anything to you. It didn't help 6 you. It was just basically saying the things that you 7 have already done, they were querying have you done 8 this, have you done that, and then at the end, "Well, 9 try another balance. That might sort it out". It 10 didn't. It usually made it worse. 11 Q. You mention in your statement that your area manager 12 visited you a couple of months after Horizon was 13 introduced; is that right? 14 A. Yes. It was -- again, I don't want to tar all the 15 area managers with the same brush. When we first 16 moved into the area, to the Post Office, we had 17 a phenomenal area manager, a young lady, that would 18 visit us every four or five weeks, pop in, have a cup 19 of tea, ask us how things were going, pass on titbits 20 that she'd picked up in other offices as to how to 21 increase sales and salary. She was fantastic. 22 Once Horizon was introduced, we never seen her 23 again and then we had the problems and next area 24 manager that came out was a new manager we'd never met 25 before. He wasn't sociable at all. He was very 27 1 business-like, came in, we explained the problems to 2 him that we were having. He wasn't really interested. 3 You know, "It's a new system. You're obviously making 4 mistakes. Things will clear up. If there is any 5 problems from our end, it will soon be picked up and 6 it will be put right. Just make sure that you keep 7 putting it right, make sure that you balance each 8 week, each month, and roll over otherwise you won't be 9 able to open your Post Office. If you don't make good 10 then the Post Office may take some sort of action 11 against you. There'd be consequences if you didn't." 12 But it wasn't in a nasty way. It was in a sort of 13 business-like way that came across. 14 Q. How did that make you feel, though, when he said that 15 to you? 16 A. It made me feel inadequate in some way. My background 17 was -- I had a lot of experience in data input. I had 18 a great deal of knowledge of computer manufacture, 19 computer monitor manufacturing, TVs, so I thought 20 I knew what I was talking about to some extent. But 21 he made me feel as if, "Oh, you're just making 22 mistakes. It's your fault". 23 It was the first -- I think it was the first 24 time in my life that I started to doubt my own ability 25 as to, you know, do I really know what I'm doing. 28 1 Q. You also mention in your statement that at various 2 points you requested extra training; is that right? 3 A. I asked that area manager if I could have some extra 4 training. He agreed to that. He said since we'd 5 initially been trained there had been some new 6 transactions added to the system and that might be 7 where the mistakes are occurring, so he said he would 8 try to get me a new trainer. 9 The trainer did come along. He was supposed to 10 be with me for three days from the Monday to the 11 Wednesday. On the first day about 4 o'clock he 12 received a phone call and he said, "I'm sorry, I've 13 got to leave. I've got to go to another Post Office 14 who've got more pressing needs than what you have. 15 You seem to be okay but I'll come back and continue 16 the training again", but he never, ever returned. 17 Q. How helpful was that training that you received then? 18 A. Absolutely useless. He just basically stood behind me 19 and watched what I was doing said, "You seem to be 20 okay". Didn't look at anything, didn't offer any 21 advice, didn't -- wasn't interested in the problems 22 we'd been having. He was just watching to see whether 23 I was carrying out the transaction correctly. 24 Q. Did you raise that again with your area manager? 25 A. Yes, for a long time we carried on about the fact that 29 1 we hadn't had the training we were promised. The 2 shortages were still continuing. We were putting them 3 in. 4 Again, whereas with the first area you would 5 see -- you don't see an area manager anymore. It must 6 have been nearly 12 months after the Horizon, after 7 the first area manager came in, that the second one 8 had turned up and he was a different kettle of fish 9 altogether. 10 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I'm sorry, so that I've understood 11 this, the very first area manager, a lady, was 12 pre-Horizon. Then you had what I would call a second 13 area manager who was business-like and now you're 14 talking about a third area manager? 15 A. Yes. 16 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, fine. 17 A. A very different one. 18 MS KENNEDY: What were you told by your last area manager? 19 A. He was abrupt, offensive, aggressive from the first 20 moment he walked in, disparaging of what I had to say 21 to him. He would be saying things like, "Maybe the 22 modern Post Office is not for you. Have you thought 23 of any other options? Have you thought of taking the 24 rural Post Office scheme?" which was a scheme where 25 they were closing down rural Post Offices and giving 30 1 the postmistress a pittance of compensation for 2 closing the office. "You needed to get to grips with 3 the system". 4 He said that, "It appears that you don't have 5 sufficient knowledge of data input". At that time 6 I explained to him briefly about my time at Sony where 7 data input was vital. He asked me how long ago was 8 that. I said about 15 years ago and again in 9 a disparaging way he said, "An awful lot's happened in 10 the last 15 years. Things have changed with data 11 input". That's when I said to him, "Yes, things have 12 changed, but in terms of data input they have changed 13 and made things simpler and easier than what they are. 14 Data input is not harder now. The big change is in 15 the hardware, in the system". 16 I took him on a journey through my time with 17 Sony about the stock taking procedures that we had in 18 Sony which were vital to Sony, to show him, you know, 19 we built 2,000 televisions a day. In each television 20 there was 3,000 components. That's 5/6 million 21 components a day going through the factory. 22 Sony in them days were the first company to 23 introduce what was called the JIT system, just in 24 time, where you didn't have a warehouse, you didn't 25 stock your components, your suppliers sent in your 31 1 components the night before you needed them for the 2 next day's production. So at the end of each day each 3 operator had to count from their work station what 4 components they had, put it on a form. That would be 5 given to the supervisor. The supervisor would hand 6 all the forms to the manager. That would be inputted 7 into the system, electronically sent to the suppliers. 8 They would send in overnight all the components we 9 needed for the next day's production. 10 If we got them stock checks wrong and not enough 11 components came in, then the next day we couldn't 12 produce the number of TVs we were targeted to produce 13 and we ended up with, as there was then, 3,000 14 employees reporting to me would be sitting idle, which 15 is expensive. So it was vital that we got daily, 16 weekly, monthly stock checks and the annual audit 17 correct. 18 It was something that I -- it was bred into me 19 for years, so I knew about data input and I knew about 20 the production of circuit boards, which is where I was 21 trying to explain to him I felt the problem lay and 22 why it was there. 23 (Unclear) interest but I then explained to him 24 how circuit boards were manufactured and why there 25 might be possibilities of problems with the circuit 32 1 boards, the fact that when circuit boards are produced 2 they come as a bare board, just a piece of plastic, 3 and the components are fitted to the board through 4 little holes in the board. 5 There's two means of production, one is what 6 they call auto insert, which is basically a robot. 7 The robot fits the components. That's the -- if it 8 goes wrong that's the easiest one to sort out because 9 if a robot goes wrong it goes wrong on every board, so 10 you've got a fault on every set. 11 Then the boards go from there to the production 12 line where the operators insert certain components. 13 And that's where you can have a problem if an operator 14 inserts a component reversed or when pushing it 15 through the hole bends a leg, you don't get a good 16 contact, you can then have a fault on the unit, and 17 quite often what happens is it's not a fault that 18 shows up straight away. The computer monitor or the 19 TV can work perfectly well but then will break down 20 later. 21 It sometimes doesn't break down until you go out 22 to the customer, and when the customer reports a fault 23 the first thing we do is we don't send an obnoxious 24 manager out to them and say, "This is your fault. 25 You're a simpleton. You don't know how to use an 33 1 expensive piece of television equipment. Maybe you 2 should get a simpler one." We take the television 3 away. We repair it. We feed the fault back to the 4 factory. Things are put in process to make sure it 5 doesn't happen again. A replacement television is 6 given to the customer, an apology. We'd quite often 7 give them some financial compensation or we'd give 8 them a present of a small Sony unit, a Walkman, 9 a Discman, to say sorry. 10 It's a completely different way they treated us 11 when they thought there was a fault because they were 12 just telling me -- I thought it had to be something 13 like that because they were telling me it was only me, 14 so I didn't think it was a software problem. 15 I thought somewhere along the line a mistake had been 16 made in the manufacture of the computers, because 17 I used to manufacture them. 18 Computer monitor manufacturing are done on what 19 we call short production runs, whereas we were 20 producing 2,000 TVs a day, we'd only produce 500 21 computer monitors a month and they would be done on 22 short runs, so less experienced. So I knew that there 23 was a possibility, if it was only me, which is what 24 I thought, that some operator had made a mistake, 25 a component hadn't been put in and it was causing 34 1 a problem. 2 This was sort of re-emphasised when an engineer 3 turned up to change the board, "At last they'd found 4 the problem", so he changed the board, went away. It 5 continued. Later, another engineer came out to change 6 the board again. I asked him what do you think the 7 problem is and he said, "I've no idea. I'm not an 8 engineer. I was just told to come out and change the 9 board". At that stage, all the time there's sort of 10 light at the end of the tunnel. It's been sorted, but 11 it wasn't. 12 We left on not good terms with that area 13 manager. He's just wasn't interested and I said, 14 "Look, I just can't continue to make good these 15 losses. It's too much now we're borrowing money to 16 make good. We're taking from the shop to make good. 17 We just can't continue". This guy he just left with 18 more of a threat this time, "If you don't continue to 19 make good, then the Post Office will have no other 20 alternative but to take legal action against you to 21 recover the losses. It's in your contract. Just make 22 sure you continue to make good the losses." 23 Q. How did you feel when he said that to you? 24 A. I felt gobsmacked. I'd never been spoken to like that 25 by anybody. I had my own ability questioned. I was 35 1 in a bit of a state to be honest. I wasn't in the 2 best of moods with him and maybe he wasn't in the best 3 of moods with me at the time he left and I felt 4 drained. I thought I'm just knocking my head against 5 a brick wall here. I know I'm not making mistakes, 6 not to this extent. I know mistakes have been made in 7 the past. I know Post Office have made mistakes in 8 the past. I knew the software could make mistakes in 9 a new system but not the way it was continuing week 10 after week after week. 11 Q. You also mention in your statement that there were 12 auditors that came to your branch and I think you say 13 they found a discrepancy of £100? 14 A. Just under 100. It was -- when they came out, it was 15 shortly after the manager left, a few weeks, and I was 16 convinced he'd sent the auditors out because I'd said 17 I couldn't afford to carry on and he thought I hadn't 18 been making good or, if not that, that he was using 19 this as a way to frighten me. I know it's getting 20 a bit -- I was getting a bit, by this stage, edgy and 21 I thought that's why these have come out. They've 22 come out to try and show that I'm short. 23 They came, but they were nice enough chaps. 24 They told me I couldn't stay in the office. I wanted 25 to stay with them to see what they were doing because 36 1 I was hoping again they were going to -- we'd been in 2 the office by this time (unclear: connection drop) but 3 we'd never had an audit. First audit that had turned 4 up and I thought they were hopefully going to sort out 5 the problem. 6 They were nice enough. They went through. 7 I couldn't be in the office with them. At the end it 8 was short by less than 100, it was something like 9 £80-odd or £90 it was short. They said I had to put 10 it right. I said that's no problem. I put it right 11 there and then right in front of them and they went 12 away. 13 Q. How much do you think you put into the Post Office 14 over your period of time as a subpostmaster? 15 A. It's at least £20,000. It's in the region of £20,000 16 over that period of time. The worst part of it wasn't 17 until the end of the second financial year, because it 18 started round about the February/March 2002, financial 19 year finished in April. 20 The next financial year I suddenly realised not 21 only am I putting all this money in from the shop but 22 I'm also declaring to the tax people and the VAT that 23 I'm taking this money and they are charging me VAT and 24 tax on money that I'd given to the Post Office. 25 I hadn't even got that money. It was a ridiculous 37 1 situation. I think that's what started -- brought on 2 the depression that I suffered. At that time we 3 decided we're selling up. We're not going to 4 continue. After the auditors we said we're going to 5 look at selling it. 6 Q. How did you feel about selling your business at the 7 time and resigning from the Post Office? 8 A. It was mixed because I was getting into a bit of 9 a state. That was the beginning of the depression 10 I went into and I was beginning to get into a bit of 11 a state and I thought this is not fair. I'm 55 years 12 of age. I was 54 then. I'm fit. I'm active. I've 13 got a good CV. I've done some -- I didn't see 14 a problem in finding another position and I just 15 thought it wasn't worth the hassle and the cost it was 16 giving us, and I was fairly confident at that time 17 that I would get another position. 18 Q. I'm going to ask you a few questions now about the 19 impact that this has had on you. You've already 20 mentioned making good the shortfalls. How easily did 21 you find another job? 22 A. What happened was that's where my health came in. 23 I started suffering from depression after that auditor 24 came along. My wife for a long time was trying to 25 convince me to go and see the GP. I just ignored her. 38 1 You know, "There's nothing wrong with me. I'm not 2 going to see the GP", and that went on for quite 3 a while until my oldest daughter came in and she sat 4 me down and explained to me the way I'd been behaving 5 and convinced me to go and see the GP. 6 That was beginning of 2004 when I seen the GP. 7 When I seen the GP he was shocked. He'd seen me six 8 months earlier and we got on very well, me and the GP. 9 We were both football fanatics. We supported rival 10 clubs. We had a chat about it. He knew at 50-odd 11 years of age I was still playing football for the 12 local football team, and when I walked in I'd lost 13 a lot of weight. I hadn't been sleeping. I hadn't 14 been eating, and he diagnosed anxiety depression. 15 I've got the doctor's notes there where he actually 16 says I'm suffering anxiety and depression due to the 17 problems at the Post Office. 18 He then prescribed antidepressants for me, 19 advised that I take a couple of weeks off work, and 20 I said I couldn't afford to do that but suffering from 21 the depression for the last few months I had been 22 taking several days off work when I couldn't cope and 23 having to bring in a subpostmaster to take over from 24 me. Which was very expensive. I couldn't continue 25 doing that. If I took two weeks off work I'd have to 39 1 again bring in a subpostmaster. I couldn't do it. So 2 what happened then was my wife had to give up -- well, 3 my wife took extended leave to begin with to come into 4 the Post Office. She looked after the quiet days when 5 she worked with a subpostmaster or a substitute 6 postmaster on the busy Monday when pensions came in 7 and on the balance day. 8 So we sort of were getting through it but then 9 I was diagnosed with cancer in mid-2004. If we hadn't 10 have been having all the financial problems for the 11 past 18 months it wouldn't have been a problem. They 12 told me I would go into the operation within the next 13 two weeks and it was six to eight weeks recuperation. 14 I had to completely rest, bed rest. 15 Without all the problems previously we would 16 have just brought in a substitute postmaster to run it 17 but we couldn't afford that so, as I say, the wife 18 then took more time off work. She was helping the 19 subpostmaster get through but I made the big mistake 20 then of because we couldn't afford it I rushed back to 21 work within two weeks, against the doctor's orders, 22 and I ended up with an incisional hernia. It broke -- 23 it had burst open. 24 They told me that that would be -- a waiting 25 list for that might be five to six months for that to 40 1 be repaired. I wasn't able to work in that time, so 2 my wife then had to give up her job completely to run 3 the Post Office and I sat in the Post Office to advise 4 her with the tricky bits, which was just making the 5 depression worse. 6 I'd had to give up all the positions I had in 7 the community. I was Chairman of the Community 8 Council and I was a trustee of Llanharan drop-in 9 centre. I was trustee of the Welfare Hall. I was 10 Chairman of the football club, Chairman of the 11 community centre. I'd given all them up not realising 12 that that was isolating myself even further and making 13 the depression worse. 14 That's when we decided we've got to sell it 15 quick. When we brought somebody in quickly we were 16 able -- luckily, we were able to sell the Post Office. 17 By then the depression was bad. Only for the family 18 I'd have been in a right state. It continued for 19 about two years after giving up the Post Office I was 20 in a bad state and the idea of 12 months before we 21 left that I was in a good position I could easily get 22 another senior position somewhere, here I am being 23 depressed for two years, with a large inoperable 24 hernia. I'd gone through three bouts of surgery by 25 then and then they said they couldn't repair it. 41 1 I was stuck with this inoperable hernia for life. 2 I had an inoperable hernia. I'd had two years of 3 depression. There was no chance of getting a job. 4 I'm now nearly 59 years of age with a two-year gap in 5 my CV. And publicity started about what had happened 6 with Post Offices and I tried to explain why I left 7 Post Office. So at that stage, 59, I'd just given up 8 on it. 9 Q. What impact did your trouble with the Post Office have 10 on your relationship with your wife? 11 A. For along time I didn't know. During the last few 12 months of the Post Office and a couple of years 13 afterwards I was in a bad way. I became a recluse. 14 I didn't want to come out of my bedroom. It was later 15 on that my children told me how badly I'd been 16 behaving. That I'd become a bit of a bully. My wife 17 was taking the brunt of all of that at the time. 18 They'd seen me go from being a sociable, outgoing, 19 fit, responsible person into a bully and as someone 20 who had never borrowed money in his life, never had 21 HP, hire purchase, never had a credit card, to 22 suddenly borrowing money from his children. To find 23 yourself in that sort of state ... before Horizon we'd 24 been financially secure. We went on regular long haul 25 holidays. We went to Hawaii, Mexico, Cuba, Egypt. On 42 1 two occasions we were able to take the whole family to 2 Florida to visit Disneyland. I was able to do that 3 with my three, now adult, grandchildren. I've never 4 been able to do that with my three young school age 5 grandchildren. We haven't had a decent holiday for 6 the past 20 years. Our life just collapsed from 7 there. 8 Q. What about your daughter who was going to take over 9 the Post Office? 10 A. Obviously, she was -- it wasn't imminent there and 11 then. So it wasn't a disaster for her. It was 12 something she was looking forward to, something she'd 13 been saving for, something that she wanted to do. She 14 wasn't too happy in her position at that time. She 15 was -- she worked in the Civil Service, Probation 16 Service, and they were going through privatisation, so 17 she wasn't too happy with -- she was looking forward 18 to this, but she got over it. She's still there, 19 still working. 20 Q. You also mentioned briefly your reputation in the 21 community. What impact did this have on that? 22 A. That was mixed. I mean, when we first left 23 Post Office, we sold the Post Office to another chap 24 and there was a nice article in the parish magazine 25 going through all that we'd done for the community 43 1 over the years and why I was leaving and everything 2 was hunky-dory. 3 But then about three months after the 4 subpostmaster sold up, got out, didn't want to know. 5 The Post Office was moved to the convenience store 6 over the road and that's when rumours started to 7 circulate then. The majority of people were fantastic 8 but as usual the minority are the most vociferous and 9 the ones that cause the most trouble. And things were 10 being said that we had been involved in something, 11 something had gone on in the Post Office and we'd been 12 sacked. 13 They were using the fact that because I was 14 suffering from depression I'd sort of gone out of 15 sight, I hadn't been seen in the area for months, and 16 was sort of putting two and two together and making 17 five. I'm ashamed to be seen in the area. They were 18 just -- I don't know how to really put it. 19 It became so that my wife again was taking the 20 brunt of it. I didn't know nothing about this for 21 years afterward, not only was she putting up with me 22 she was putting up with some of the residents and she 23 didn't want to go explaining to them what my health 24 issues were to strangers explaining why we'd left the 25 Post Office. 44 1 So she was taking the brunt of all that and all 2 of a sudden to these people all that I'd done in the 3 community -- I mean, just before I'd left I'd raised 4 nearly £100,000 to refurbish -- on my own -- to 5 refurbish the Welfare Hall that was in a dilapidated 6 state. All of a sudden that's all forgotten. They 7 just wanted to talk about the fact I'd been sacked 8 from the Post Office. As I say, at that time I didn't 9 know nothing about it. So it just went on and on. 10 Happy to know there's still -- although the vast 11 majority who knew me, I'm certain there's still some 12 out there that still believe something went on, 13 particularly during the era when publicity was around 14 postmasters being prosecuted and things like that. It 15 just generated itself. 16 Q. What would you like from the Post Office now? 17 A. From the Post Office? I know a lot of people have 18 said a lot of things so I'll just keep it quite 19 simple. 20 I've got mixed feelings on this. I've got to be 21 honest. I wouldn't like to see any more people going 22 to prison. It would be more innocent people, not 23 them, their partners, their children being affected. 24 I don't want to see any more innocent people affected 25 by this. 45 1 What I would like to see is the people at the 2 top of the tree, they always build a firewall round 3 themselves. No real action ever gets taken against 4 them. But what I'd like to see is the publicity where 5 they would be publicly humiliated, so much so that 6 they wouldn't be able to get another senior position 7 anywhere else and that the media could make sure that 8 that happens, that they get shunned by society as some 9 of us were shunned by society. People don't want to 10 know them. 11 People further down the line, I'd like to see 12 them explain on oath all that they were involved in. 13 They must have known, even the people on the helpline 14 they were telling me I was the only one. They must 15 have been getting phone calls from hundreds of 16 postmasters on the same topic and still they were 17 telling me, "You are the only one". I'd like to see 18 them on oath explain all that they were involved in, 19 who instructed them to behave in that way that they 20 did and why, when they had become aware of the 21 situation, as they obviously had, they continued to 22 knowingly pursue innocent people. 23 I would like to see all NDOs, non-disclosure 24 orders, lifted so we can finally get transparency and 25 people can freely tell what they know. I'd like to 46 1 see some form of asset recovery order in order to 2 recoup all the bonuses that these senior executives 3 were paid and profits the Post Office made were made 4 on the back of people like me and others. They 5 shouldn't still have that money. 6 Finally, please pay the 555 the legal expenses 7 that were incurred. It's dragging on. You have said 8 it should be done. You know it can be done. You've 9 got the best legal minds in the country. You have 10 proved that in the past when you chased us, so you 11 shouldn't find it too difficult in being able to 12 release -- I know you are saying in full and final 13 payment, but that was done on the basis of you were 14 dealing with us in good faith, which has been proved 15 that you weren't, so that full and final settlement 16 should be set aside. 17 Q. Is there anything else you would like to say to the 18 Chair? 19 A. I would like to make a personal statement, if Sir Wyn 20 is happy for me to do that. 21 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, of course. 22 A. In simple terms the Post Office managed to destroy, in 23 two years, all that I had strived to achieve in the 24 previous 40 years. My reputation, financial security, 25 mental health, well-being, nearly destroyed my 47 1 marriage and family life. It was my family that seen 2 me through that dark period. 3 Just for a little background, I'm one of ten 4 brothers and sisters. I had to leave school at 15 5 with no qualifications in order to financially 6 contribute to the family. Years later at the age of 7 25, with my wife's support, I returned to full-time 8 education. At that time we had pre-school twins and 9 Cathy returned to work full time to support this. 10 After, I was employed at Sony UK as 11 a supervisor. Over the years I worked hard and 12 continued my education of an evening after work at 13 Bridgend College earning my degree from the Institute 14 of Business Managers and then worked my way up the 15 management structure to become the senior production 16 manager with a workforce of some 3,000 reporting to 17 me, with a management team of 20 managers and 45 18 supervisors. 19 Later, I became self-employed and in 1998 we 20 brought Brynna Post Office and, as I thought, settled 21 down to see out our working life in a lovely rural 22 village. 23 At this time I became actively involved in the 24 community activities, chair of Llanharan Community 25 Council, trustee of Llanharan Community Development 48 1 Trust, trustee of Llanharan Welfare Hall, chair of the 2 village football club, governor of the local primary 3 school. All of this was ripped away from me by 4 a dishonest management team who couldn't find it 5 within their conscience to admit their mistakes and 6 instead ruined the lives of hundreds of hard working 7 people such as myself. 8 I also believe that they're responsible for my 9 now physical ill health in that due to the financial 10 system I found myself in at that time and my kidney 11 cancer diagnosis and surgery, I returned to work 12 earlier than I was directed as I could not afford to 13 continue employing a substitute postmaster at great 14 cost further, which resulted in suffering a serious 15 incisional hernia requiring further surgery which was 16 unsuccessful, and a third one which again was 17 unsuccessful resulting in a consultant determining 18 that there was no possibility of rectifying the 19 situation and I'm now left with a large inoperable 20 hernia on my right side. 21 To some extent, I feel myself lucky in deciding 22 to sell my office when I did. I was listening to the 23 others, some of whom suffered similar small losses as 24 I did and then, out of the blue, a massive loss. 25 I think this was waiting round the corner for me, an 49 1 amount that we would not have been able to pay. 2 I don't know what would have happened if that had 3 occurred. 4 At the conclusion of this Inquiry, I'm just 5 hopeful that the publicity setting the blame where it 6 belongs squarely at the feet of the Post Office 7 management will finally reinstate my reputation and 8 others in our communities and vindicate what I've 9 always said. 10 I would like to express my thanks to Alan Bates 11 and his team for the phenomenal amount of work that 12 they've devoted to this. When Mrs Vennells is finally 13 stripped of her awards, if you politicians wish to 14 make amends, I'd suggest you look no further when it 15 comes from than nominations for this group who gave us 16 all heart, through all the heartache. 17 And finally, thanks to you, Sir Wyn, for giving 18 us the opportunity to publicly lift this weight off 19 our shoulders. 20 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Well, the thanks actually, Mr Bowman, 21 are due to you for coming to speak to me. So thanks 22 very much. 23 A. Thank you, Sir Wyn. 24 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Right, we have another live witness, 25 yes? 50 1 MS KENNEDY: Yes, that is right. 2 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Do we need a short break before that 3 happens? I can see a few nods in the room, so around 4 about 11.30. 5 MS KENNEDY: Thank you. 6 (11.22 am) 7 (A short break) 8 (11.33 am) 9 MS HODGE: Thank you, sir. Our next witness is 10 Mr Christian Clement. 11 CHRISTIAN CLEMENT (affirmed) 12 Questioned by MS HODGE 13 Q. Mr Clement, as you know, my name is Catriona Hodge and 14 I ask questions on behalf of the Inquiry. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. Please can you state your full name? 17 A. Christian Clement. 18 Q. You made a statement on 8 February of this year; is 19 that right? 20 A. That's right, yes. 21 Q. Do you have a copy of your statement in front of you? 22 A. I do. 23 Q. Please could you turn to the final page of that 24 statement at page 10. 25 A. Yes. 51 1 Q. Can you see your signature at the bottom of that page? 2 A. I do, yes. 3 Q. Have you had an opportunity to reread your statement 4 since it was made? 5 A. I have and I'd like to make some amendments, if 6 I could. 7 Q. Please. 8 A. Paragraph 2, just change the date to December 2017. 9 Q. So this is at paragraph 2, are we talking about the 10 first date or the second date, please? 11 A. The second date, October '15 to December 2017. 12 Q. Thank you. 13 A. And paragraph 27 as well, please. 14 Q. Yes, thank you. 15 A. Where it says I went into the residential premises, 16 I want to change it to went to the retail side of the 17 premises. 18 Q. That's fine. Are there any other further changes? 19 A. Yes, 47, paragraph 47. To say that I wasn't hit over 20 the head on this occasion but I was threatened with 21 a gun and then I hit the silent alarm. 22 Q. So in the first paragraph when you said "I was hit 23 over the head", you said it was a threat with a gun? 24 A. Threat with a gun and then I hit the silent alarm. 25 Q. Okay. Thank you. 52 1 A. 49, just one word. On this occasion I was 2 "threatened" not "assaulted". 3 Q. Thank you. Apart from those corrections is the 4 statement otherwise true to the best of your knowledge 5 and belief? 6 A. It is, yes. 7 Q. Thank you. I'd like to begin by asking a few 8 questions about you? 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. How old are you, Mr Clement? 11 A. 46. 12 Q. Where did you grow up? 13 A. In Manselton, Swansea. 14 Q. What did you do on leaving school? 15 A. I did computer studies in college and then I went on 16 to do a trainee butchery in Welsh cut meats, and then 17 I went to help my father in a post office and general 18 store. 19 Q. When did you first become involved in running 20 a post office branch? 21 A. Not running, I worked in a post office branch because 22 my father, because he had a post office in his 23 premises and that's where I learnt the front of house 24 when I used to serve customers and just do the 25 general. 53 1 Q. Do you recall when you started helping him? 2 A. I think it was 1998. 3 Q. And you have explained that you -- he employed you; is 4 that right? 5 A. That's right, yes. 6 Q. What was your role? 7 A. Just mainly to do with the shop side of things, just 8 do the buying and selling of the warehouse and 9 bringing stock there and occasionally help out in the 10 Post Office on the counter. 11 Q. Where was that Post Office located? 12 A. In Trallwn. 13 Q. For how long did you assist your father in the branch? 14 A. For almost 14 years. 15 Q. Why did you later decide to apply to become 16 a subpostmaster? 17 A. Well, after my father sold the business I started 18 doing relief work going in other offices, covering 19 them for holidays and whatever, and I had a position 20 in Manselton where they wanted holiday cover. So 21 I went there and they told me then that they were 22 looking to sell so I looked into it and I thought it 23 was good prospects so I thought I'd buy it. 24 Q. When did you purchase it? 25 A. I think it was December 2007. 54 1 Q. This was that branch in Manselton? 2 A. It was, yes. 3 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Sorry to interrupt but I'm just 4 intrigued, it's not something that's vital to the 5 Inquiry but we heard from Mr Kelly yesterday and 6 Mr Kelly told us that he'd also been a subpostmaster, 7 I believe, in Manselton and that's the Brondeg 8 Post Office so that was -- 9 A. No, that was round the corner. I was robbed -- 10 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Precisely, but there was more than one 11 Post Office in Manselton? 12 A. Yes, there was, yes. 13 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Fine, thanks. 14 MS HODGE: Which products and services did you provide 15 from the branch? 16 A. All pensions, giros, lottery, just all the general 17 Post Office things. 18 Q. And you have mentioned already there was a retail side 19 to the business? 20 A. There was yes, we have the lottery terminal and we 21 just had general, cards, confectionary, some drinks, 22 stationery. 23 Q. Where did you live whilst you were running the 24 Post Office branch? 25 A. I lived behind, upstairs in the flat. 55 1 Q. So there was some residential -- 2 A. Attached to the Post Office, yes. 3 Q. How much did you pay to purchase the business? 4 A. It was about 220,000 I think. 5 Q. Did that cover the goodwill of the business? 6 A. Yes, I had to take out a remortgage on my other house 7 to purchase the premises. 8 Q. But were you -- sorry, were you purchasing a freehold 9 property? 10 A. Yes, it was, yes. 11 Q. How much money did you put into renovating the 12 premises? 13 A. About 10,500. 14 Q. How much income did you receive from the Post Office 15 for running your branch? 16 A. 45,000 a year. 17 Q. When was Horizon first installed in your father's 18 branch? 19 A. 1997/98 I think. I'm not 100 per cent but I think it 20 was around there. 21 Q. What training did you receive when it was first 22 installed? 23 A. We had -- well, I had half a day's training at 24 Aberavon Beach Hotel. We went there. We were just 25 shown the front of office and how to basically serve 56 1 customers, but nothing in the back office to do with 2 accounts and how you balanced or any of that. 3 I picked that up slowly as I went along. 4 Q. Who provided the training to you at the hotel? 5 A. The Post Office. 6 Q. What was your impression of that adequacy of the 7 training you received? 8 A. It wasn't adequate. There was a lot of gaps. 9 I picked up as I went along, as I was working 10 alongside other people I picked their brains on how to 11 do things and how to move forward and things I wasn't 12 sure of. But as for the training, no. It just wasn't 13 long enough. I think we needed a lot more training. 14 Q. Did you feel confident using the system after you'd 15 received that training? 16 A. Not really, no. Not for a while until I, as I said, 17 picked other people's brains. 18 Q. Did you receive any further training when you were 19 appointed as subpostmaster? 20 A. No, we had somebody there for the changeover and that 21 was about it. They just checked everything, all the 22 accounts and all the cash, and then they just swapped 23 us over. I had a number of an auditor who used to -- 24 who came to do my father's office when he swapped over 25 and I took his number so anything I wasn't sure of I'd 57 1 ring him to pick his brains to help me if I wasn't 2 sure of what I was doing. 3 Q. Did you experience problems using the Horizon system 4 when you were working in your father's branch? 5 A. My father started to have losses but he wasn't too 6 sure. He thought it might have been staff so he was 7 installing cameras and everything else, but he was 8 having losses but not to the degree I was having. 9 Q. What did you do when shortfalls or discrepancies 10 arose? 11 A. I'd have to put it back in the till. 12 Q. Did you make any efforts to identify the cause? 13 A. Yes. I phoned the helpline. I had a number for 14 Chesterfield. You ring them up to try and find out if 15 there's anything looks out of place and just trying to 16 trace down what, you know, does anything stand out. 17 But they'd always just say, "No, nothing, everything's 18 fine. If there is a mistake and we find it we'll send 19 you a transaction correction and you can just accept 20 it and it will balance the books", so ... but no. 21 Q. Is that what would happen that you'd receive 22 a transaction -- 23 A. I never had a transaction correction. It was always 24 only one way, always losing money. 25 Q. When you were employed as subpostmaster how often were 58 1 you calling the helpline for assistance? 2 A. Several times a week. 3 Q. You've explained that you were told to put the cash in 4 and you would receive a transaction correction to 5 balance out later. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And that didn't occur? 8 A. No. 9 Q. How would you describe the quality of the assistance 10 you received from the helpline? 11 A. Poor, very poor. It was just as you phoned them and 12 give them the problem you seemed to know more than 13 they did, because it just seems as if they were 14 reading off a script. They may as well have told me 15 to switch the computer off and switch it back on, it 16 will all be sorted. But, no, it wasn't very helpful. 17 Always passing you from pillar to post and you never 18 really got anywhere, just frustration. 19 Q. You have identified in your statement a number of 20 shortfalls -- 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. -- that you experienced. They are recorded at 23 paragraphs 17 to 25 of your statement. I'd just like 24 to ask you a few questions about those, if I may. 25 Some of these shortfalls date back more than 59 1 a decade. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What records did you keep -- 4 A. Everything was in my bank statements, everything 5 I paid out that would come out of my pay. So I have 6 got all my payslips with the deductions for all the 7 losses which is how we broke down all this to my 8 accountant, where my accountant would go through and 9 break down all the losses over the decade. That's why 10 we came up with a figure of what we put in over ten 11 years. 12 Q. So you have explained you were told to pay money in? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. How did you do that? 15 A. We'd have to settle centrally, that's the only way, 16 because I didn't have the cash, that kind of cash to 17 pay upfront, you'd just press a button to settle 18 centrally and it would go off to head office and then 19 they'd deduct it out your salary then. 20 Q. So in virtually every case deductions were being made 21 from your salary? 22 A. From my salary yes. 23 Q. And you could record that on your payslip -- that 24 would be reflected on your payslip? 25 A. Yes. 60 1 Q. In terms of the figures you have recorded there in 2 your statements at paragraph 17 onwards, do these 3 reflect individual shortfalls that you experienced or 4 are they an aggregate of a number of -- 5 A. Individual shortfalls, monthly, yearly. 6 Q. How were these shortfalls discovered? 7 A. Well, basically, we do a cash variance every day, 8 declare our cash every day, it would be up or down 9 a couple of pounds, nothing big, but whenever we come 10 to the main balance the monthly balance it would 11 always kick out crazy figures. Like one time it would 12 be £800. Another time it was £2,500, £5,500 and you 13 just dig out the safe, you pull out all the stamps, 14 you triple check everything to see if you have done 15 a mistake, you have added up something wrong, you 16 check what you have remmed in from outside, as in cash 17 and stamps, to see if you have made a mistake but 18 nothing. Everything seemed to be above board. So we 19 could never -- that was the big thing, you could never 20 tell them where it was. It was just you didn't know, 21 and as crazy as that sounds you just didn't know. You 22 don't know why you're down. 23 So it was just so frustrating. 24 Q. You have, explained you phoned the helpline on 25 a number of occasions, several times per week you 61 1 said? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you formally raise a dispute with the helpline 4 about these shortfalls you have recorded? 5 A. Yes, I spoke to my contracts manager to tell him 6 there's something not right. We even had a meeting 7 and I went there and asked him if I was the only 8 person this was happening to and he said, "Yes, you 9 know, you are the only person this is happening to", 10 because I couldn't understand how we kept on losing 11 this money all the time. 12 It makes you doubt then whether or not you are 13 doing your job properly, even to the doubt where you 14 are blaming the staff that's working with you, like my 15 sister was working. I'm thinking is she making 16 mistakes, my ex-brother-in-law who was on the lottery 17 system, there was fingers pointed it could be the 18 scratch cards which he was on. So I'm looking at him 19 thinking is he taking money. So it just cast doubt on 20 everybody who was working with you. It was awful. 21 Q. You just explained you raised concerns with your 22 contract manager at the time? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Who was that? 25 A. Colin Burston. 62 1 Q. How much in total do you believe you paid to the 2 Post Office to make good shortfalls shown by Horizon? 3 A. Over a ten-year period, about 80,000, 88,000. 4 Q. What effect did this have upon your finances? 5 A. Huge effect, huge effect. I think it was one of the 6 main factors with the pressure of constantly being 7 down and losing money. I've had to rent my house out, 8 move in with my parents. It cost me a relationship of 9 17 years because we were always arguing over money and 10 the stresses and strains of everything, just in a bad 11 place, depression, drinking, bad anxiety. 12 Every day when are you are getting up for work 13 you think is this the last day I'm going to work. Are 14 the auditors going to be outside? And you are just 15 waiting for the axe to drop. It's a horrible feeling. 16 Q. You have mentioned audits. You have explained in your 17 statement that your branch was audited each year? 18 A. Yes, most years we'd have an audit, yes. 19 Q. Between the date of your appointment and when you 20 ultimately -- your contract was terminated. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Correct. You have explained that on each occasion 23 a shortfall was discovered; is that right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Were the shortfalls discovered during the audit 63 1 additional to the ones that you have recorded earlier 2 in your statement? 3 A. There was -- there has been shortfalls with the audit 4 but as long as it was under £1,000 I was told we could 5 reopen and we did. There was a few occasions we were 6 £800 down and we still were allowed to reopen and to 7 settle it centrally. It was just most times the 8 auditors came we were always down by something. There 9 was always a couple of hundred pounds. 10 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: So can I understand this, Mr Clement, 11 if we just go back to paragraph 17 onwards or 16 12 onwards where you describe the shortfalls. 13 A. Yes. 14 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Over the years the shortfalls reached 15 quite -- well, very high amounts. 16 A. Yes. 17 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: But so that I understand it, what was 18 happening was this, is it: you would see that there 19 was a shortfall? 20 A. Yes. 21 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: You would settle it centrally once you 22 discovered what it was? 23 A. Yes. 24 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: So all these deductions were coming out 25 of your wages? 64 1 A. That's right, yes. 2 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: So that by the time of an audit, the 3 shortfall was comparatively small because you kept 4 paying it back. 5 A. Yes, because it's already come out of my account. 6 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: So there were like two parallel lines. 7 A. Yes. 8 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Paying it back so that on -- 9 A. You pay this one back and then this one's coming in. 10 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, fine. 11 Sorry, Ms Hodge. 12 MS HODGE: Not at all. Thank you, sir. 13 You have explained that an audit of your branch 14 took place in May 2007? 15 A. That's right. 16 Q. Sorry, 2017, I apologise. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And that audit revealed an apparent shortfall of 19 approximate £6,000? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You said again on that occasion you were required to 22 pay that money -- 23 A. Pay it back. 24 Q. -- by way of deduction from your salary? 25 A. Went in to see my contracts manager again, went 65 1 through the same old scenario, and he said this was my 2 last chance. If any other shortfalls after this you'd 3 be terminated, so ... 4 Q. So far as you are aware, did the Post Office carry out 5 any investigation into the cause of this shortfall 6 when you raised your concerns with your contracts 7 manager? 8 A. I asked them to but nothing ever came back to me, no 9 phone calls were ever made to me or any paraphernalia 10 coming to me to say they were looking into things. it 11 was just a phone call I never had. I would be on to 12 my contracts manager chasing him up to see if there's 13 anything happening and, "No nothing, just put the 14 money in, just put the money in". 15 Q. Was that the final audit of your branch in May 2017? 16 A. No, the final audit was December 2017. That's when we 17 had the massive loss and I got suspended on the spot. 18 Q. What was the amount of the apparent shortfall on 19 that -- 20 A. 43,000. 21 Q. And what action was taken by the Post Office as 22 a result of that shortfall? 23 A. Suspended me on the spot pending an investigation. 24 Took the keys off me and told me they'd be in touch. 25 Q. You've mentioned that you were suspended previously 66 1 from your role -- 2 A. I was. 3 Q. -- in October 2011; is that correct? 4 A. That's right, yes. 5 Q. For a period of three months? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You've explained this was the result of an audit which 8 revealed an apparent shortfall of £2,000? 9 A. That's right, yes. 10 Q. What effect did the suspension have on your salary? 11 A. Oh, salary stopped. I had no income at all. They put 12 some temporary staff into my Post Office and I moved 13 in with my parents until, well, just prior to getting 14 my job back and thank God I did. 15 Q. You said you did get your job back. How did that come 16 about? 17 A. I had another interview with Colin Burston, explained 18 to him that I didn't hide everything. Everything was 19 declared. I even spoke to him to say that there's 20 a problem put everything through the system as it was 21 to show that there was a shortfall and just reiterate 22 that there was nothing underhanded going on. I've 23 declared everything as it was, so I wasn't hiding 24 anything and I told you about the shortfall before 25 I was suspended, so ... 67 1 Q. Forgive me, this is in relation to your first 2 suspension? 3 A. Yes, it was, yes. 4 Q. When you were later suspended as a result of the audit 5 in December 2017 -- 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. -- how was that resolved? 8 A. Well, I was with Freeths at the time and I told 9 Freeths about what had happened and they told me not 10 to accept any contact from the Post Office and they'll 11 deal with them themselves. But I tried ringing my 12 contracts manager to speak to me and because I had 13 solicitors involved he said he couldn't speak to me. 14 Q. You say you'd instructed solicitors by this point? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Was that part of the Group Litigation? 17 A. Yes, the Group Litigation, yes. I was already in it 18 as I was still a subpostmaster because I was still 19 having losses. 20 Q. Did the Post Office ultimately take any action against 21 you in relation to that shortfall of approximately 22 £43,000? 23 A. No, nothing. 24 Q. You've explained in your statement you experienced two 25 robberies of your branch? 68 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. On the first occasion -- you have of course made some 3 corrections. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. But in the first instance, you've explained that you'd 6 left your Post Office, the Post Office -- 7 A. Side. 8 Q. -- side of the premises, to go into the retail side? 9 A. That's right, yes. 10 Q. Why had you done that? 11 A. At the end of the day we got the lottery terminal 12 there with all the cash so every day you empty the 13 cash out to take the print offs and they put it 14 through the system in the Post Office. So I left the 15 Post Office to go and get the cash and the printouts 16 and on the way back I got struck behind, on the back 17 of the head, and knocked unconscious. But I didn't 18 lock the door of the Post Office because it's 19 literally from that wall to halfway through the room, 20 from the Post Office to the lottery counter. And 21 I was held accountable for half the money that went 22 missing. 23 Q. What did that amount to? 24 A. About -- I think it was about 50,000 -- 46/50,000. 25 Q. On the second occasion that your branch was robbed no 69 1 money was taken? 2 A. No money was taken, no. 3 Q. What happened on that occasion? 4 A. I had two men come in with bike helmets and poking up 5 against the class and told me to give them the money, 6 where they tried to jar the door open. So I just fell 7 to the floor and hit the silent alarm and just waited 8 for the police to turn up, which they did within about 9 15 minutes. Yeah, shook up. 10 Q. Did you report that incident to the Post Office? 11 A. I phoned the helpline, told them. They asked if any 12 money had gone missing. I said no, and they said 13 they'd contact me in due course and then I had a phone 14 call then just to give me a number if I felt stressed. 15 But after that I didn't hear anything else. It was 16 just a bit of a kick in the teeth. I was left in 17 limbo. They actually didn't care. That's what it 18 felt like. Just a number. 19 Q. How did your contract with the Post Office come to an 20 end? 21 A. Well, they asked if I -- well, I had to sell my 22 premises. Because there was no income I had to do two 23 jobs to try and pay the mortgages. I had to sell my 24 house at a £21,000 loss and then they asked me if 25 I wanted to be reinstated as subpostmaster after all 70 1 this had gone on but I said I haven't got premises to 2 use anymore. So they said -- what did they say? 3 They'll terminate my contract and I think they ended 4 up giving me some money to terminate my contract. 5 Q. Just to break that down a little, you said as a result 6 of no income coming in you had to sell the premises? 7 A. I did, yes. 8 Q. Is that because your income, your salary was stopped 9 when you were suspended in December 2017? 10 A. It was, yes, yes. 11 Q. Without that income you couldn't afford to pay -- 12 A. No, I couldn't afford the mortgage. 13 Q. -- the mortgage on the property. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You sold that property at loss of £21,000; is that 16 right? 17 A. I did, yes. 18 Q. Although you were subsequently asked by the 19 Post Office if you wished to be reinstated? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Before these events occurred, what had been your 22 intentions and your hopes in relation to your 23 Post Office branch? 24 A. A secure future, secure prosperous future. I thought 25 it would all be good. I wanted to reiterate what my 71 1 father had done with his office and build it up into 2 something special, which I was on the way to doing. 3 We were the number 1 seller of stamps and stuff in 4 most of South Wales, won prizes, and I built it up to 5 a good business and hopefully we were going to go 6 onwards and upwards but it was never the case. It was 7 just always an uphill struggle. 8 Q. In terms of the financial impact on you, are you 9 currently in debt? 10 A. I am, yes, yes. 11 Q. What's the nature of your debts? 12 A. I owe 21,000 to the bank. I owe 10,000 to HMRC. 13 I owe my father about 25,000. So yeah we're not in 14 a good place. 15 Q. What efforts have you made to obtain alternative 16 employment? 17 A. I'm now doing delivery driving work at the moment just 18 to try and get ends meeting and pay back some of the 19 bills. 20 Q. You've already described the financial pressure this 21 created. It caused you a great deal of stress -- 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. -- and anxiety; is that right? 24 A. Yes, it is, yes. 25 Q. Did you receive any treatment? 72 1 A. I had some anxiety tablets prescribed to me by the 2 doctor. I didn't want the antidepressant ones. In 3 terms of -- well, I just had some anxiety pills and 4 drowned my sorrows in alcohol. 5 Q. For how long did you -- are you continuing to 6 experience problems? 7 A. No, no, we're on the way out. Still not right. My 8 anxiety levels are terrible, especially in places like 9 this. It's been hard to come here today but, yeah, 10 I'm slowly getting there. I've just got to keep at 11 it. 12 Q. You have also explained it had quite a significant 13 impact on your personal life. 14 A. Yes, it cost me my relationship of 17 years. Just 15 couldn't -- you know, just couldn't carry on with -- 16 because what happens is when you're down all the time 17 you end up taking your problems home. It's always on 18 your mind. You're always down money, always waiting 19 for the axe to drop, and the pressure was just too 20 much, and that was the end of that unfortunately. And 21 my children, you know, it's obviously put a lot of 22 stress on them as well but we've just got to try and 23 pick ourselves up and move forward. 24 Q. Do you still see your children? 25 A. Yes, I do. 73 1 Q. You've explained you became a claimant in the Group 2 Litigation? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Is that right? How much compensation did you receive 5 when that was settled? 6 A. Not enough. Not enough to clear the debts. Yeah, 7 I just -- well, just not enough. I still owe loads of 8 money out and it just didn't really get me on any firm 9 footing at all. 10 Q. How do you now feel about the treatment that you 11 received from the Post Office when you experienced 12 these shortfalls? 13 A. Disgusting. They didn't help me at all. They left us 14 out in the cold. I just felt like -- well, there was 15 nobody there to help you. Just felt on your own, even 16 though you're phoning round trying to ask for help 17 from every direction and every phone number, nobody. 18 Just, "Put the money in. Put the money in. Put the 19 money in", so no. 20 Q. What do you think the Post Office needs to do to put 21 right what's happened to you and others in your 22 position? 23 A. Make it as if this never happened. I'd -- I don't 24 know. Give us a secure and prosperous future again if 25 they can do that. I don't know. Give everyone what 74 1 they deserve and then some. 2 Q. I've no further questions for you, Mr Clement. Is 3 there anything you'd like to say to the Chair that 4 we've not already covered? 5 A. No, that's okay. Thank you. 6 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Well, thank you, and particularly since 7 it was an effort for you to come, which I fully 8 understand, I'm even more grateful. 9 A. Thank you very much. Thank you. 10 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Right. I think the next stage is some 11 statement reading; is that right? 12 MS HODGE: That's right, sir. That concludes our oral 13 evidence for this morning. 14 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I think Mr Enright is going to read 15 a number of statements. 16 Do you want to have a short break, Mr Enright, 17 or are you happy to just carry on? 18 (Comments off microphone) 19 Then that's fine. So let Mr Enright take the 20 stage and then once he's completed his reading, we 21 will decide on the timetable for the rest of the day. 22 MR ENRIGHT: With your permission, chair, I'd like to read 23 some summaries. Yesterday you made it clear that the 24 Inquiry and your legal team have the full witness 25 statements of all CP victims. I will now read you 75 1 some short summaries in relation to Mr Paul Harry, 2 Helen Walker Brown, Janice Adams, Lawrence Bailey and 3 Mrs Pamela Lock. 4 MR PAUL HARRY, summary read by MR ENRIGHT 5 MR ENRIGHT: Mr Harry has been the subpostmaster at 6 Treherbert from 1988 to the present day. He's been 7 a subpostmaster of three other branches. Mr Harry 8 provided employment for 21 assistants across all four 9 branches. Mr Harry experienced shortfalls on the 10 Horizon System in excess of £100,000 across his 11 Post Offices over the course of 22 years. The 12 Post Office deducted 25 per cent of his salary. 13 Paul was threatened with prosecution if he did 14 not pay the supposed shortfalls. The Post Office 15 audit teams refused to listen to his pleas that they 16 help him and investigate the true cause of the 17 shortfalls, which he told the Post Office were caused 18 by computer errors. 19 Under threat of legal action Mr Harry was 20 compelled to make good these supposed shortfalls from 21 his own funds. He was forced to borrow money from 22 family members and had to sell his family home. 23 Mr Harry says that he was and remains extremely hurt, 24 frustrated and angry. Mr Harry and his wife became 25 very anxious and depressed. He says it is diabolical 76 1 that the Government and Post Office have been able to 2 treat them in the way that they did and get away with 3 it. 4 Mr Harry says it is clear that nobody in the 5 Post Office cares about subpostmasters and how they 6 were treated, in any other private organisation this 7 would not have happened. It is simply because the 8 Post Office is a Government organisation that they 9 were able to get away with it for so long. At this 10 point, the Post Office should hold their hands up, 11 accept responsibility and say that they will put this 12 right. 13 Mr Harry, like so many subpostmasters, 14 concludes: 15 "We just want to put our lives back on track and 16 move on." 17 MS HELEN WALKER BROWN, summary read by MR ENRIGHT 18 Sir, I now turn to Ms Helen Walker Brown. Helen 19 Walker was a teacher for 20 years before becoming 20 a regional education officer and thereafter becoming 21 a subpostmistress at Penmaenmawr in April 2017. 22 Ms Walker Brown experienced problems with the 23 Horizon System in her first three months and 24 experienced numerous shortfalls. Helen found the 25 helpline to be of no assistance. On a number of 77 1 occasions when she experienced shortfalls, the course 2 of action recommended by the helpline caused the 3 shortfall to double. After a large shortfall, 4 Ms Walker Brown felt her position had become untenable 5 and she resigned in April 2018. Ms Walker Brown was 6 party to the Group Litigation against Post Office 7 Limited that uncovered this national scandal. 8 Throughout her time as a postmistress, Helen 9 suffered constant worry and stress caused by 10 shortfalls which rendered her business unviable. This 11 affected her family life. Helen felt that she had let 12 down her local community who relied on her 13 Post Office. 14 After resigning as a subpostmistress, Helen 15 would rarely leave the house. When she eventually 16 did, she would use the back alley as she felt unable 17 to face local people. Eventually, she felt she had no 18 option but to leave her village and move to the next 19 county. Helen says: 20 "In my view, the Government must repay, or be 21 required to repay, the legal and legal funding costs 22 the subpostmasters and subpostmistresses incurred to 23 pull back the heavy veil the Post Office had drawn 24 over the Horizon system, and their actions against 25 innocent, decent postmasters." 78 1 Helen says: 2 "It cannot be right that ordinary British people 3 must bear the cost of uncovering a national scandal, 4 particularly one of this scale." 5 MS JANICE ADAMS, summary read by MR ENRIGHT 6 So I move to Janice Adams. Ms Adams was the 7 subpostmistress in Pontypridd from June 2000 until May 8 2014. She had worked at the Inland Revenue for 24 9 years prior to this. She was, and is, a meticulous 10 person. 11 Ms Adams states that the Horizon training "was 12 pathetic and laughable." She suffered shortfalls of 13 some £5,000, which the Post Office deducted from her 14 salary. Janice says that Post Office auditors were 15 intrusive and unfriendly. They acted in a manner 16 which made it clear to her customers that she was 17 being investigated. 18 Ms Adams says that when she reported the 19 discrepancies to the Post Office, they told her it was 20 down to her lack of experience. They made her feel 21 like she was stupid and incompetent, even though she 22 knew that this was not the case. She would cry every 23 Wednesday night as she struggled to balance the 24 Horizon System. 25 Ms Adams suffered from migraines due to stress 79 1 and the shortfalls caused her to struggle financially. 2 As a result of the issues with the Horizon System, she 3 spent less time at home with her three young children. 4 Her family was not able to go on holidays as they were 5 so short of money. 6 Janice says: 7 "I tried to get on with my life and not think 8 about the Post Office, but I think a lot of 9 subpostmasters are struggling. I want to help others 10 and for the public to know all about the Horizon 11 scandal so something can happen for these people who 12 need it. I would like those responsible to be held to 13 account." 14 Janice says: 15 "The people who knew and hid the problems with 16 the Horizon definitely have to be held to account." 17 MR LAWRENCE BAILEY, summary read by MR ENRIGHT 18 Sir, I move to Mr Lawrence Bailey. Lawrence is 19 the husband of Joan Bailey who gave evidence to you on 20 22 February, sir. I will not repeat the powerful 21 evidence that Mrs Bailey gave you regarding her and 22 Lawrence's experiences of the Horizon System and the 23 conduct of the Post Office. However, although 24 Mr Bailey shared Joan's experience, this scandal also 25 affect him personally. 80 1 Not only did Lawrence help run the main branch 2 he also travelled 80 miles twice a week to provide 3 Post Office outreach services to smaller communities. 4 The village halls where he did this were sometimes so 5 cold that he would do exercises to stay warm. 6 However, Lawrence thought it was important that those 7 in isolated communities have access to Post Office 8 services. 9 Lawrence says of the treatment he received from 10 the Post Office, that it: 11 " ... has and still does cause me great 12 distress. It brought me to the lowest part of my 13 life. I had gone through some dreadful times but 14 I had always come out on top. I had never known fear. 15 I considered myself to be capable of looking after 16 myself with my knowledge of martial arts and having 17 always been an active and strong person in body and 18 mind. However, the Post Office actions caused me to 19 question my own sanity and I was in great despair and 20 considered taking my own life. My wife and son took 21 me to the GP and I was given immediate access to 22 a mental health professional and was classed as having 23 suffered a mental breakdown and was considered to be 24 at serious risk of self-harm." 25 Mr Lawrence Bailey says of the Post Office that: 81 1 "Their duty of care was non-existent." 2 MRS PAMELA LOCK, summary read by MR ENRIGHT 3 Finally, sir, I would like to turn to Mrs Pamela 4 Lock. Pamela Lock became a subpostmistress in Powys 5 in 1974. She is now sadly widowed. She has two 6 children and six grandchildren. She is 73. Together 7 with her late husband she ran a successful bakery 8 business alongside a busy Post Office for 26 years 9 before the introduction of the Horizon System. During 10 those 26 years are she experienced no problems with 11 shortfalls: none. 12 The Horizon System was introduced in early 2000 13 and by July 2000 her Post Office Horizon System was 14 reporting a shortfall of over £30,000. Rather than 15 investigate the cause of the shortfalls experienced by 16 this long-serving postmaster, the Post Office 17 prosecuted Mrs Lock. She appeared in the Magistrates' 18 Court in November 2001. Her case was then sent to the 19 Crown Court. On advice she pleaded guilty. She and 20 her daughter stood weeping in the court. Her husband 21 was silent. Mrs Lock says of her husband: 22 "He said little but felt much." 23 Mrs Lock waited 20 years to have her conviction 24 quashed and to regain her good name. The personal and 25 financial impact on Mrs and Mr Lock was immense. 82 1 Mrs Lock's conviction was splashed across the 2 South Wales Evening Post. People she had known for 3 years shunned her. Mrs Lock and her husband had to 4 sell a part of their retail business to pay back the 5 shortfalls. They struggled to keep their retail 6 business going, as they had lost footfall with the 7 loss of the Post Office and her name had been trashed 8 in the local community. Eventually, they had to sell 9 their business for a pittance. 10 These terrible experiences continued for 11 20 years. Mrs Lock lost everything including her 12 reputation. She has said: 13 "I would like the Post Office to pay for a front 14 page headline in the South Wales Evening Post, showing 15 a picture of me then and now, with the headline 16 'Pamela Lock was innocent -- Post Office apologises'." 17 Diniwed. Thank you, sir. 18 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Enright. 19 While I've got you here, so to speak, I think 20 the witness this afternoon is a person -- 21 MR ENRIGHT: An anonymous witness, sir. 22 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: I made a restriction order in this 23 witness's case. And the witness is scheduled, I take 24 it, for 2.00, but given that we're now at 12.15, we're 25 either going to have an elongated lunchtime or is 83 1 there the possibility that the witness will be ready 2 to give evidence a little earlier than 2.00? 3 MR ENRIGHT: I am hoping he may already be in the 4 building, sir, and I can speak with him and liaise 5 with you very quickly. 6 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Yes, and no doubt you will tell 7 everybody else so that everybody who is interested in 8 hearing that evidence will know when it's happening. 9 MR ENRIGHT: Yes. 10 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Thank you very much, Mr Enright. So 11 I'll wait to be kept appraised of when we meet again. 12 Thank you. 13 (12.13 pm) 14 (A short break) 15 (1.30 pm) 16 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Before we start, I need to say 17 something about the restriction order in respect of 18 this witness. I understand that you have no objection 19 to the branch Post Office in which you have worked 20 being made public. Is that correct? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: All right. So in the restriction order 23 which I made, the publication might have led or it 24 could be construed as leading to the possibility of 25 identifying the witness but in the light of the fact 84 1 that the witness is happy for the branch to be named, 2 everyone should understand that the restriction order 3 is varied to the extent that I permit the naming of 4 the branch in which the witness has worked and/or is 5 working. 6 Ms Hodge, is there anything else I need to say 7 or does that cover it? 8 MS HODGE: Thank you, sir. 9 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Fine. 10 MS HODGE: Sir, we are hearing this afternoon from 11 a witness who as you say has been granted anonymity by 12 order dated 3 February 2022. I'm going to refer to 13 this witness as Witness 0281 which is the reference 14 number for the statement which he has provided to the 15 Inquiry. 16 WITNESS 0281 (affirmed) 17 Questioned by MS HODGE 18 Q. As you know, my name is Catriona Hodge and I ask 19 questions on behalf of the Inquiry. 20 We know you as Witness 0281. You made 21 a statement on 3 February of 2022; is that right? 22 A. That's correct, yes. 23 Q. Do you have a copy of that statement in front of you? 24 A. I do. 25 Q. Please could you turn to the final page which is 85 1 page 26. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you see your signature there in the middle of the 4 page? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Have you had an opportunity to reread that statement 7 since you first made it? 8 A. I have, yes. 9 Q. Is the content of the statement true to the best of 10 your knowledge and belief? 11 A. Yes, they are. 12 Q. I'm going to begin by asking a few questions about 13 you. How old are you? 14 A. I'm 61 years old. 15 Q. I don't want you to state your full address but can 16 you indicate where in the country you are from. 17 A. In Bristol. 18 Q. You were previously married; is that right? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. For how long were you married? 21 A. I was married for ten years but I was in the same 22 relationship for going on to 14 years. 23 Q. You have two children; is that right? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. How old are they? 86 1 A. At the present moment, 14 and 13. 2 Q. What did you do for a living before you worked for the 3 Post Office? 4 A. I was a business person. I had a number of 5 properties. I had a number of restaurants. 6 I renovated property, bought and sold properties, and 7 I was very comfortable and successful. 8 Q. Why did you later decide to apply to be 9 a subpostmaster? 10 A. I was cash poor and collateral rich, in a sense, and 11 I was coming to that point in life that I wanted some 12 regularity, and I had a few friends in the Post Office 13 network and I don't know why but I started 14 investigating and finding out and it was regular hours 15 and the income varied and I was intrigued and I was 16 looking for a new venture. 17 Q. What did you hope to achieve by working for the 18 Post Office? 19 A. Well, I hoped to be successful and to be stable, which 20 I was already, but successful and that's what 21 I wanted, to be successful. 22 Q. Prior to your appointment you attended three 23 interviews with representatives of the Post Office; is 24 that right? 25 A. That's correct. 87 1 Q. Do you know why you were asked to attend three 2 separate interviews? 3 A. I don't know why but it seemed that that was the way 4 that they were conducting their business and if they 5 wanted to interview me, I was quite happy because I'd 6 got nothing to hide and interviews are there to 7 scrutinise and to find a good character of person, as 8 I've done many interviews in my time. 9 Q. In which year did your appointment as a subpostmaster 10 begin? 11 A. My appointment started in the middle of 2006. 12 Q. What attracted you to the branch which you took on? 13 A. There were a number of branches available through the 14 franchise option but I did not want to be having a one 15 counter or a two counter-type business, I wanted to 16 have the income as being the main income and any side 17 business that I had in the premises would be 18 a complementary to the customers. But it was the 19 salary which had attracted me in this particular 20 branch. 21 Q. What arrangements were made in relation to the 22 purchase of the branch? 23 A. That's a very difficult question to answer because the 24 subpostmaster before I took the premises was already 25 suspended and, in effect, while the branch had 88 1 a value, there wasn't a value because there was no 2 goodwill of anything to purchase as I was guided 3 through a number of companions that I had. But I did 4 invest up to £86,000 on renovating the so-called 5 flagship because they were looking to branch out and 6 they were looking for recruitments who were thinking 7 out of the box, who were keen, and the Post Office was 8 looking to re-brand its brand. So my initial 9 investment was £86,000 at the time. 10 Q. What was the name of the branch? 11 A. The name of the branch is Westbury-on-Trym in Bristol. 12 Q. Can you describe that branch to us please, how it was 13 when you took it over? 14 A. Well, it was a very traditional building. It was 15 a very dilapidated office. It was a main Post Office 16 but not a Crown Office. There was only one or two 17 items which we weren't able to do which separated me 18 from the Crown Office, but it was a dilapidated office 19 with six counters, and it was a busy office because it 20 was the main office in the vicinity. 21 Q. You've explained it had six counters. It was 22 a relatively large office, was it? 23 A. Yes, yes, compared to the other Post Offices in the 24 area, yes, it was -- it was the main Post Office. It 25 was known as the main Post Office. 89 1 Q. What was the annual turnover of the branch? 2 A. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to answer that question 3 but if the Chair allows me I -- 4 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: What are you concerned about in 5 answering it? 6 A. Well, we live in a blame society and I supposedly have 7 signed a ... a contract of information I think, you 8 know, Secrets, the Secrets Act. 9 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Well, all right. So that we don't get 10 too bogged down, was the turnover very many millions 11 per year? 12 A. Well, if you allow me, sir, I -- 13 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: The thing is -- 14 A. It was well over 30,000 -- 30 million. 15 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: All right, that's fine, sir. 16 MS HODGE: Thank you. Can you please describe the type of 17 business that you operated from the branch. 18 A. When I took over, I was still running the same branch 19 as it was traditionally and out of the six counters, 20 they were -- four always were open. One was a foreign 21 currency counter which we kept it separate because of 22 the importance. 23 Sorry, could you repeat that question again? 24 Q. I asked what type of business you were operating from 25 the branch. 90 1 A. Yes. Mainly it was Post Office business and 2 Post Office products, and there was a stationery 3 business which was the retail part, which was only 4 complementary. It wasn't the main focus. You know, 5 if somebody didn't have a pen, didn't have an 6 envelope, you know, those little things were there to 7 purchase. But my main income was -- the driving force 8 was the Post Office products as it was. 9 Q. How many staff did you employ to assist you in running 10 the branch? 11 A. Well, in the middle of June when I took over, I think 12 I had about five or six staff. They didn't all work 13 full time. The hours varied to their convenience and 14 to the convenience of the business. There was no 15 strict order of -- but we had all four counters 16 opening so, in effect, yes, I had four staff in the 17 morning, four staff in the evening. 18 Q. Where did you live when you worked for the 19 Post Office? You don't need to give me an address but 20 was there a residential part to the premises or did 21 you have your own home? 22 A. The business was operated from a commercial office. 23 I lived away from the business premises. 24 Q. That's fine, thank you. 25 In relation to your training, what training did 91 1 you receive when you were first appointed? 2 A. Well, I think that's where the problems started. 3 Initially, it was supposed to be two weeks' 4 office-based training but mainly it was all product 5 driven and that's all I can remember. There was no 6 specific amount -- specifically it was just general 7 because whilst I was there, there were I think four or 8 five other persons and some came, some didn't. It 9 varied. I can't remember. 10 Q. Did your training ever cover how you should resolve 11 shortfalls when you were balancing your accounts? 12 A. There was no training about shortfalls because it was 13 assumed that there would not be any shortfalls. We 14 were more taught on what products to up-sell and what 15 was the flavour of the month product and it was on 16 more product training and how to change the till roll 17 and how to feed the printer labels, because it was at 18 the time when labels were coming in and stamps were 19 also being provided at the same time. 20 Q. Did you raise questions about the Horizon System with 21 your trainer? 22 A. I raised a lot of questions at my point of training, 23 so-called training. I raised a lot of questions and 24 I was told that I was asking too many questions and 25 everything would be revealed, and that's how they 92 1 operated. 2 Q. How adequate was the training in preparing you to 3 operate the Horizon System? 4 A. It was not adequate because in proportion to the other 5 people were there at the same time being trained, it 6 was generalised because some were having small 7 offices, some were having a convenience shop with one 8 counter and I had a large office. So it wasn't 9 specifically, it was just general broad-based 10 training. 11 Q. Did you ask for further training? 12 A. I requested and I said I'm not comfortable. You know, 13 you're asking me to take on something and I was not 14 comfortable. I allegedly spent a lot of time asking 15 questions which didn't need to be answered because it 16 will all come clear once I take on the office. 17 Q. Did you receive any additional training from the 18 Post Office? 19 A. Yes. There was one trainer who was shadowing me. 20 Because I was taking on the branch which was already 21 functioning, which had a stand-in manager or 22 managers -- I can't remember -- the staff, all the 23 other staff were -- they were already there for quite 24 a number of years. So I was the only one which was 25 being trained and I was being shadowed by a so-called 93 1 trainer. 2 Q. You've mentioned that at the point at which you took 3 over running the branch the previous subpostmaster had 4 been suspended; is that right? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Did you know why the subpostmaster had been suspended? 7 A. No. Again it's coming back to I was asking too many 8 questions scenario. I just liked to know why, why 9 people left, and why didn't -- what was the reasons? 10 So no, it was never explained to me but the chips 11 started falling down when I took over the office 12 because the staff that I had had already had a history 13 of events which I was updated in the first week of 14 taking over. 15 Q. What were you told? 16 A. Well, I was simply told that the person previous was 17 suspended for a large amount of shortage of money. 18 Why, how it happened, it's out in the media. There 19 are different ways to look at it but it didn't concern 20 me and I was told, you know, it doesn't -- I don't 21 need to know. 22 Q. Did you experience unexplained shortfalls when using 23 the Horizon System? 24 A. Yes, on the very first day, on the very first day of 25 cashing up, things were not right. There was 94 1 a shortage, if I remember, on my till, a number of 2 other tills. But from my past experience of my own 3 running my business I used to have an in-house daily 4 book, as I like to call it, and I understand that 5 human nature is that, you know, accidentally you give 6 out £1 too much or take in £1, you know, and I had 7 allowed in my own mind £5 a week per person to have 8 a discrepancy, you know, which it was a large office 9 and human error occurred. 10 So we used to put it down in a name and whether 11 it was a plus or a minus sign, the amount of shortfall 12 or if it was up. 13 Q. What efforts did you make to identify the cause of 14 shortfalls shown by Horizon? 15 A. Sorry, could you ask me that question again please. 16 Q. Yes, of course. What efforts did you make to identify 17 what had caused shortfalls in your account shown by 18 the Horizon System? 19 A. Well, I was restricted by the organisation. Firstly, 20 the first week I had a trainer auditor, whatever 21 they're called, training me and showing me and he 22 didn't look shocked to see a discrepancy on my first 23 day on one or two of the tills and it was small 24 amounts which didn't warrant me to be overly concerned 25 because I was assured that it all balances out at the 95 1 end of the week. I took that on board. 2 Q. Did you contact the helpline for support when you 3 experienced discrepancies? 4 A. Well, not for the first week or two because I had 5 so-called a trainer and it was a large office. He did 6 most of the checking and there were shortages and he 7 made all the adjustments and enquiries which -- but 8 after he left, I was thrown in the deep and I had 9 staff to guide me and I called the helpline which 10 not -- shouldn't be called a helpline. 11 Q. How often did you contact the helpline, do you think? 12 A. Every day. It was a large office and we were or I was 13 brainwashed into that everything has to balance and 14 cashed up by 6.00 or 6.30 when everything shut down. 15 So, you know, there was a lot of pressure that I had 16 to balance, and I think by 7.00 we would balance 17 because it was still the first three or four weeks and 18 I was just settling in. 19 How often would I call the helpline? Every day, 20 because there were things that I didn't understand. 21 There were discrepancies occurring which I didn't 22 understand. The staff were also confused but they 23 were already working the system before I got there, 24 the staff, so they knew some sort of history which 25 they were permitted not to discuss with me for some 96 1 reason but there were discrepancies from day 1. 2 Q. What was the nature of the advice that you received 3 from the helpline about how to resolve these 4 discrepancies? 5 A. Well, in the very early days, there was a lot of 6 anxiety. The helpline, so-called helpline, was 7 supposed to help us. They guided me to press F1, F3, 8 go on to the next screen and then, you know, and then 9 if there's a shortage don't worry, cash up, and it 10 will adjust itself tomorrow. 11 Q. What do you mean by cash up? 12 A. Cash up, meaning at the end of each day the office -- 13 because I had a number of staff, each staff had its 14 own unit. So they had their own cash drawer, in 15 a sense. If they started work at 9, finish at 1, then 16 you know they were finished 1 and then they cash up 17 and balance their till accordingly and then they would 18 put their till away into a secure safe-type drawer 19 system. 20 So at the end of the day we would have three 21 counters and then we close the door and everybody 22 would cash up their monies and there were 23 discrepancies, even a fortnight after the trainer had 24 gone there were still discrepancies. 25 I couldn't understand. 97 1 Q. You've described discrepancies arising day-to-day on 2 individual tills. What would happen when you came to 3 the end of a trading period? Did you experience 4 shortfalls at that stage? 5 A. Well, that question needs to be answered in two 6 separate parts. The trading period was always 7 a Wednesday to a Wednesday and the reason why 8 traditionally Post Offices closed on a Wednesday, half 9 day, was it took them the rest of the half day to cash 10 up all the monies because it was paper-based. So 11 traditionally it was a Wednesday to a Wednesday and 12 our first day started on a Thursday morning. 13 Then that was a weekly cash up -- daily cash up, 14 and then there was a weekly cash up, and there was 15 a monthly cash up. So whatever discrepancies you had 16 on a day-to-day basis would roll over into the week 17 and then the Wednesday would finish and then if there 18 was any discrepancies it would roll over into the next 19 month and there were 12 months, and each month had 20 a different Wednesday to coincide with a certain 21 branch. 22 So my end of the month could be a Thursday but 23 not necessarily the rest of the whole of Bristol 24 branch because we all had an A, B, C, D-type graph, 25 and then we would know which day was our end of the 98 1 month and everything had to be balanced and made good. 2 Q. And what do you mean by made good in this context? 3 A. Well, made good simply meant that if there was any 4 shortfalls or discrepancies made good, because the 5 Post Office had the attitude that their system was 6 correct and proper and if there was an error it would 7 be a human error and I was responsible for the branch. 8 I was coached into this position unknowingly, now that 9 I know what I know, and made good was if there was 10 a shortfall I had to balance it in order to roll over 11 into the next new month. 12 But the majority of the time was always a couple 13 of hundred quid loss, which seemed odd but allegedly 14 I'd signed a contract that it was my responsibility to 15 make sure that the Post Office doesn't -- there's no 16 losses, so that's what I mean by make good. 17 Q. Did you ever challenge the Post Office about your duty 18 to make good these shortfalls? 19 A. I started challenging the Post Office from day 1. 20 I asked a lot of questions. How can it be that my 21 experienced staff are having discrepancies? At no 22 point did I ever think my staff were stealing because 23 it was, the way I had worked it, it was well organised 24 and very transparent and they were experienced staff. 25 The staff that come into the Post Office are not 99 1 in for the stealing. They just wanted comfortable 2 hours and a comfortable job with a start and a finish 3 time and some stability. 4 Q. You've mentioned reporting discrepancies to the 5 helpline you have also said now you raised your 6 concerns. With whom did you raise your concerns? 7 A. Well, I raised my concerns with the helpline because 8 they were the only people that I was able to look to 9 or get in touch with. There was nobody else other 10 than my contracts manager. But I didn't not get in 11 touch with him, I raised with the helpline and made 12 sure that they raise it. 13 Q. Do you know whether the Post Office made any enquiries 14 when you raised concerns about shortfalls and 15 discrepancies? 16 A. I don't know what enquiries they made because it was 17 always a very hush-hush kind of establishment and 18 I don't know what enquiries they made. 19 Q. You've explained that you made good these shortfalls. 20 Did you do that by paying money into the till or did 21 the Post Office make deductions from your wages or was 22 there some other method of making good? 23 A. I made good from my own funds, which again there was 24 a retail part of the business and I made good and 25 that's all the Post Office was concerned, that if 100 1 there was any discrepancies they needed to be made 2 good. 3 Q. When you say you made good from the retail side, you 4 were using your retail business, in effect, to 5 subsidise -- 6 A. Yes, the retail side and also I had some personal 7 monies, a number of properties with a number of 8 rentals coming in and everything else was on my 9 business plan when I put the business plan into the 10 business when I was interviewed. So I made good 11 I can't remember from which sources but it was either 12 from the retail or from my personal money that it came 13 from. 14 Q. How much do you think you paid in total to make good 15 shortfalls shown by the Horizon system? 16 A. How much money have I made good from the point 17 I started to now? I have spent in excess of round 18 about £90,000 making good of alleged shortages. 19 Q. I appreciate that's an estimate. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you keep records of the shortfalls that you were 22 experiencing? 23 A. Yes, we kept records of the shortfalls but nobody 24 cared. Nobody -- nobody cared, nobody wanted to know 25 about -- I just kept my own personal records but 101 1 I don't have them now. But I remember I was very 2 thorough, you know. 3 I'm not highly educated in any sense but I know 4 how to plus 1 plus 1 equals 2 and not, you know, some 5 other odd number. Yes, I had a daily record, 6 a monthly record. We kept everything and it was all 7 transparent. You know, any member of staff could come 8 and have a look at the time should they want to and 9 that's the way I worked. 10 Q. I'd like to ask you some questions now about your 11 experience of working with the National Federation of 12 SubPostmasters. 13 You have explained that you were a member of the 14 Federation; is that correct? 15 A. Shamefully, I was a member of the Federation of 16 Subpostmasters -- shamefully. 17 Q. Did you have any formal role or responsibility within 18 the Federation? 19 A. From the very offset, I was a member from the very 20 first day I started work and I went to a number of 21 meetings when they were held. Then they were 22 localised, and then they were regional areas and then 23 they were central areas. I concentrated more on the 24 local areas and once a fortnight we would have 25 a meeting or once every three weeks we would have 102 1 a meeting locally. 2 Q. You have described providing support to other 3 subpostmasters. What did they tell you about their 4 experiences of using the Horizon System? 5 A. I was thrown into the role by the so-called Federation 6 and I was happy and eager to help everybody and 7 anybody in the Federation -- so-called -- and when we 8 went to meetings and there were concerns raised 9 I would try to understand them and just relay my 10 information to the Federation at the time. 11 Q. To whom did you communicate your concerns within the 12 Federation? 13 A. Well, it was all localised, so I didn't have any 14 specific named role. There was a local chairman, 15 a treasurer, secretary, and I never had a role other 16 than a representative. So I took the information on 17 and discussed it with the general people who were 18 already in the business and just generally discussing 19 issues and events that were going on. 20 Q. Do you recall roughly when you raised concerns with 21 the Federation about Horizon on behalf of other 22 SPMs -- sorry, subpostmasters? 23 A. Can I make one little request, please. Can I please 24 ask you to raise your voice because I'm having trouble 25 hearing you. 103 1 Q. Of course, I apologise. 2 A. But could you ask me that question again please. 3 Q. Yes, it was do you recall when you first raised 4 concerns with the National Federation of 5 SubPostmasters about the problems that you and other 6 subpostmasters were experiencing with Horizon? 7 A. Well, yes, I think, you know, within the first month 8 because there was a role vacant, in a sense, because 9 I was running the main office I was expected to take 10 up a role and which I was happy to take on and it was 11 not an issue. 12 I raised the questions and issues with the local 13 members who presumably were going to take it further 14 up the line and that was the way the organisation was 15 organised. Everybody had a pigeonhole and they had 16 their boundaries and that's the way the organisation 17 was formed, I believe. 18 Q. How did representatives of the Federation respond to 19 you when you raised concerns? 20 A. Again, I'm astonished and ashamed to understand how 21 this organisation, who paraded themselves as a caring 22 and willing organisation, but they were under the 23 assumption of no there can't be any errors in the 24 system and it must be a human error and it was always 25 played down. The issue was always played down. 104 1 Q. Did you ever speak out to the local press about the 2 concerns that you had? 3 A. Again, I want to champion a gentlemen by the name of 4 Mark Baker who was the south-west representative and 5 I want to champion this gentleman. He was a pillar of 6 strength. I've not met Mr Bates but I raised these 7 issues with him. He then supposedly raised them with 8 the Federation further up the chain. 9 Q. I'm going to move on, if I may, to the audits of your 10 branch. You have mentioned that your branch account 11 was regularly audited; is that right? 12 A. Yes, it was regularly audited, always on a Thursday 13 morning, never any other day. The reason for that 14 makes sense because all the hard work would have been 15 done. The person in charge, myself or any other 16 person, they would have cashed up and all the stock 17 units would have been balanced or minus or up or down, 18 either way. So they always came unexpectedly but 19 always on a Thursday morning. 20 Q. What information were you given about the findings of 21 the auditors once they'd carried at their audits? 22 A. Well, in the beginning I think in my role in the 23 first/fourth/fifth month the auditors came, I think 24 there were three members, very intimidating in the 25 sense of, "We are the Post Office", you know, like, 105 1 "We're the police and we are coming here to check", 2 and it was very relaxing. They did their job. 3 I would not interfere. It was drawn that they had 4 every right to walk in as and when and check whatever 5 and yes so be it. They came, they checked. 6 And so I was quite accustomed to having at least 7 two audits a year or sometimes three was never an 8 issue. It was what it was and it was what it was at 9 the time. You know, I had a very large safe and there 10 was a lot of money there. Everything was documented. 11 Everything was processed. Everything was there. 12 There was no issue. They came, they checked and then 13 they always said, "We'll come back to you". There 14 were shortfalls and then I was to discuss it with the 15 helpline. 16 Q. What would happen in relation to the shortfalls? 17 A. Well, there is no explanation to the shortfalls. 18 There was no explanation. There was a shortfall and 19 the system was so perfect that any errors would be 20 a human error or a hands in the till error, and my 21 staff were the most honest people and there was 22 always -- there was always a quarterly shortfall, 23 monthly shortfall, but we had to make good. 24 Q. You've explained in your statement that you took the 25 Post Office to court in about 2009/2010; is that 106 1 right? 2 A. Yes. I took them to court and I want to emphasise, 3 which is very important, I was taking Post Office 4 Limited to court and not the Crown. But when 5 I discussed that there were these issues and there 6 were a number of issues, they had a blasé attitude of, 7 "We're untouchable. Do what you want to". And the 8 thinking at the time was also that I was taking the 9 Crown to court, which was never my intentions or my 10 thought. I was taking a Limited company which did not 11 stand up to what it promised and what it was supposed 12 to do. And I had a number of barristers who looked at 13 it and said, "Yes, we can see. Yes", but the way it 14 is, it was a climate, it was the way it was and it was 15 even said that, "Take it in front of a judge and you 16 will not win it", because the mentality was such that 17 it was the British Raj attitude which was the carrying 18 on, you know, that, "We're untouchables. We are 19 just -- we are right". 20 I'm afraid I was not successful in that claim, 21 even though there were many good grounds. 22 Q. To what exactly did your claim relate? 23 A. I can't remember because I don't have the information. 24 I remember that I took them to court and it was only 25 Post Office Limited that I was taking to court and no 107 1 other bodies and what claim, I cannot remember now. 2 I ... 3 Q. What effect did your action against the Post Office 4 have on your relationship with the organisation? 5 A. Well, the effect was already downhill from day 1 6 because I was asking too many questions and so the 7 effect was I was already a thorn in their 8 organisation. But all I was was an honest person 9 trying to establish that there is -- there's lots of 10 issues in the system that I'm not qualified but there 11 is issues and it's not my staff and it's not myself or 12 my partner at the time, it was -- there was a system 13 error. But I could not get through. 14 Q. You've mentioned in your statement your contract was 15 once suspended in December 2007; is that right? 16 A. Yes. Yes, it was -- it was a shock to my system, 17 degrading. I was suspended. I can't remember the 18 total reason for it but there was a lot of things 19 going on. Because I was interviewed three times in 20 three different stages and I was taking on a large 21 Post Office, I was suspended for some approximate 22 10/14 days at the time. I can't remember for what 23 amount or what reason it was but it was definitely 24 a shock to my system and my morale at the time. 25 Q. You've explained that you were suspended again I think 108 1 in 2018; is that correct? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. After a shortfall was found by an audit of your 4 branch; is that right? 5 A. Yes. In the middle of 2018 I was already having life 6 crisis. I was trying to run a large organisation and 7 my lifestyle crisis were overwhelming and on a happy 8 Thursday morning I had auditors walk in to my branch. 9 I think there were approximately three or four 10 persons, I can't remember -- it was definitely three 11 persons -- and they were regular in the sense of they 12 weren't strangers. I knew of them, that they'd been 13 to my branch. Out of the three, one of them would 14 have been -- you know, they were familiar people in 15 their role. 16 Q. And the discovery of the shortfall led to your 17 suspension; is that right? 18 A. Well, before the discovery of the shortfall, I was 19 already telling them that there was an issue of £9,000 20 of that point, in that period of time, not mentioning 21 about the other losses that have occurred, and before 22 my suspension there was a so-called trainer audit, 23 some clerk came in just to check out and see things 24 and -- but on that fine Thursday morning I had an 25 audit and it was still £9,000 short and I was 109 1 suspended for reasons ... 2 Q. There was an issue relating to your personal 3 circumstances as well I understand; is that correct? 4 You need not go into the detail but -- 5 A. Yes, and that's why I paused because, again, it's very 6 easy for persons to blabber on but yes, I had personal 7 issues, my life was in turmoil and then on top of that 8 I had the audit and I knew there was a shortfall. I 9 knew and I called the helpline and I told them that 10 there was and there couldn't be, and they were 11 adamant, and then I was given a choice of what I could 12 be suspended for. 13 Do you want me to relate to ...? 14 Q. You need not go into the personal circumstances, thank 15 you. How did your appointment come to an end? 16 A. My appointment came to an end on that fine Thursday 17 morning approximately round about 12.30/1.00/2.00 18 I had a conversation with my contracts manager and 19 I was given a choice of either (a) or (b) but I was 20 going to be suspended. 21 Q. Forgive me, your appointment ultimately was 22 terminated; is that right? 23 A. It was terminated on that day in 2018, yes, by the 24 phone call and then followed by a special delivery 25 letter confirming my suspension and paragraph XYZ dot. 110 1 Q. I'd like to talk a little bit now about the impact 2 that these events have had upon you. It's your 3 understanding that your contract came to an end on the 4 day of your suspension; is that right? 5 A. (Pause) 6 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: Just take a little time. There's no 7 rush. 8 A. Could you please ask me that question again? 9 MS HODGE: Forgive me, I was simply looking to clarify. 10 You've explained that you were suspended and I wanted 11 to clarify with you how your contract came to an end 12 but I think it's your understanding on the day you 13 were suspended, in effect, that brought your contract 14 to an end. Is that right? 15 A. Allegedly, I was given a choice of either (a) or (b). 16 I took the latter (b), and my contract was terminated 17 via the phone talking to my contracts manager who 18 I knew of and was familiar with for the duration of 19 the time that I spent in the Post Office and it came 20 to an end. 21 Q. What happened to the Post Office branch when your 22 contract was terminated? 23 A. Well, this is an area that, you know, the policemen of 24 the industry starts kicking in because the Post Office 25 area, once I was suspended I was not allowed to go 111 1 into that area, which is called the fortress for the 2 layman, which was a secured area which is where -- but 3 the retail side I was free because I was -- my retail 4 side. But the Post Office was closed for a week after 5 my suspension. 6 Prior to my suspension I had been trying to sell 7 the business for a very long time, which was 8 manipulated by the Post Office and it boiled down to 9 that I had to find a suitable person who would be 10 suitable to the Post Office to take over my branch and 11 be gullible. That is the right word -- who would be 12 gullible enough to carry on taking the whipping in 13 a way of the organisation. 14 So when I was suspended it was worthless. But 15 I was suspended and there was a gentleman in the 16 vicinity who was very keen, who spoke to the contracts 17 manager via the phone. I don't think they ever met, 18 and it was scrutinised and he passed an interview over 19 the telephone because he had already established 20 business in the vicinity and I could confirm that he 21 was a genuine person. 22 He came into the role to take on. But he was 23 a business person, and business-minded person, who was 24 not wanting to be standing behind a counter all day, 25 "Yes sir, no sir, okay sir, yes sir, yes sir, no sir", 112 1 but he was happy to have it staff-managed. So he was 2 already interested in purchasing the business as 3 a going concern but there were so many issues it just 4 delayed and delayed and then I was suspended, it was 5 not worth anything. He was available, he was happy to 6 take on with the understanding quite clearly that 7 I still be available to train him and his staff. 8 So whilst I was suspended it was agreed that 9 I could still go into the Post Office side to train 10 these two new people in order to keep the flow of the 11 business going but yet I was suspended but I was not 12 allowed to be in the Post Office, but I was there 13 training the new staff and the manager. 14 You know, this is how you can break rules when 15 you're a big organisation who don't care. It was 16 their convenience that it was convenient for me to be 17 there. I was not -- it was known that I was suspended 18 by a number of staff because, you know, staff are 19 staff and they were always, you know, the next best 20 thing to the newspapers is staff because they always 21 have their assumption of why, the reasons why. 22 And as I said, I went for the latter paragraph 23 (b) for my suspension for reasons I've explained 24 and -- but I was allowed to go in to train the staff 25 and there was another member of staff who was there as 113 1 well and trained but, you know, she couldn't be 2 trained then and serving the customers, so I needed to 3 be around and I fitted in, which I was not getting 4 waged for but I was suspended. It was common 5 knowledge I was suspended but it was a local village 6 and the business needs to be opened. 7 Regardless of what goes on, it was convenient 8 for the organisation to acknowledge I was suspended 9 but still allow me to be there to train the staff so 10 the business can still -- and I wanted to help because 11 we subpostmasters have not come into this business to 12 steal, to have our fingers in the till. We have put 13 a lot of time and effort and money and all the 14 subpostmasters, the 99 per cent of the people have 15 been honest, loyal subjects to the organisation who 16 only wanted to serve the community. 17 So, yes, I allowed for this person to come in. 18 I was advised not to, but I made a personal choice of 19 allowing this person to come in and to keep the 20 Post Office open and still served the general public 21 because the need was there. The people came first. 22 The need of society came first, not my personal 23 lifestyle and I was advised not to open it and not 24 allow it and I went against that advice because I did 25 not want my reputation to become a stigma to follow 114 1 me, so the doors were opened regardless of what went 2 on. 3 There were lots of issues going on in my life 4 and I was suspended and I was still working and 5 opening the doors and cashing up and in that very six 6 weeks of the gentleman being there, he was already 7 through £2,600 shortage and I explained to him that at 8 the time he didn't want to be involved in the 9 organisation. The Post Office was again closed for 10 another five or six days and another gentleman came to 11 take over. 12 But I went against the good advice that I was 13 given by a good respectable gentleman and I didn't 14 have the energy to challenge the system but I wanted 15 to keep the office open for the good of the people, 16 for the community, and I failed. 17 Q. How was your -- forgive me. (Pause) 18 A. Sorry. 19 Q. No need to apologise. 20 A. I didn't hear the question. 21 Q. How was your health affected by your experience 22 running the Post Office? 23 A. Well, my health was affected from the first day that 24 I signed the contract, so-called employment contract, 25 because I've never, ever saw one. I remember signing 115 1 two bits of documents which supposedly was my 2 employment contract and another document, the Secrecy 3 Act document. 4 I was diagnosed as diabetic. Diabetes is in my 5 family which when they were slightly older it was, you 6 know, it was common but I was already diagnosed 7 diabetic and they couldn't understand why. I was on 8 medication and going beyond into the business, going 9 on, I was advised to be on insulin which I had one 10 jab. Then going on into the business I was advised to 11 have two jabs and I was obese. I wouldn't eat 12 anything but my diabetes was so bad and I could not 13 explain that to the general public or -- and to the 14 doctors of what my situation is because I was -- it 15 was a gagging order, in effect. 16 I was always drummed into whenever, you know -- 17 apologies for that. 18 It was always drummed into I've signed a Secrecy 19 Act and I couldn't discuss my business with anybody 20 outside the organisation. So my poor doctors, they 21 did what they could. I was on twice jabs, insulin. 22 It was so bad that I had -- they were saying that I 23 had to go and have my third jab in the routine of 24 every day and I was then offered an alternative 25 operation and I had that alternative operation, and 116 1 two years for it to settle down and my diabetes is now 2 controlled. I'm still a diabetic via the operation 3 I had and -- but there were other medical issues 4 occurring which was part of the job stress I was 5 under. 6 But there was nobody I could talk to. I had the 7 Post Office so-called managers who just wanted to push 8 their specific product of the month and they came in 9 and I have chased a few managers out of the office 10 because I know I have to get up at 7.00 in the morning 11 or 6.00 in the morning and I have to get changed and 12 ready to go and open those doors. I know I have to 13 serve a number of people. I know I have to close at 14 a certain time and I know I was self-employed. But 15 these so-called managers who came from fancy jobs 16 previous and were hired, which is fine, but when 17 I asked them, "Can you explain to me how this 18 shortfall or this has occurred?" 19 "Oh well, we'll take it up with the helpline and 20 they'll get in touch." They were not interested. 21 They were only interested in pushing their flavour of 22 the month product and I'm pleased to tell you that 23 I was -- I have chucked a few of those managers out 24 because they had no knowledge of customer service, 25 they had fancy roles but there were a number of 117 1 managers -- there was one particular manager who 2 said -- and I said to him, I said, "Look, let's be on 3 the level. What is it you are chasing? What product 4 are you looking for? What's the flavour of the 5 month", and he wanted this, this, this and I said, 6 "I can do that for you". And his figures had doubled 7 or raised and his figures were going up, he was 8 a happy bunny, but in return he had made a comment on 9 he could not understand why I was labelled as 10 a difficult person to work with. 11 All I was trying to do was cry out for help to 12 an organisation who didn't want to listen and I'm 13 telling them that there's a problem in the system that 14 I could not explain and I could not work. From day 1, 15 there was a problem and I raised the problem up and 16 I took it to all the levels and there was nobody there 17 until a point of 2010 when the -- another organisation 18 of the trade union organisation, under another 19 gentleman, who is a very respectable gentleman, came 20 in and I moved -- I was a member of both 21 organisations, the Federation of Subpostmasters and 22 the new TUC or union. But I was allowed to be 23 a member of both organisations. 24 But I championed this other gentleman who 25 supported me and who knew and he had a voice that he 118 1 could speak from a different platform and he was being 2 challenged by the Federation. He was already the 3 black sheep. He was already. 4 Q. Who are you referring to? 5 A. I'm referring to a gentleman by the name of Mark Baker 6 in the organisation. 7 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: We're very familiar with Mr Baker. 8 We've heard a lot of evidence about him from -- 9 A. I have great respect for the gentleman. He's been 10 taken through the tumble drier. His health has been 11 affected but he never -- he never let anybody down. 12 He was a pillar of strength and I want to champion 13 this gentleman. 14 MS HODGE: What effect did the stress you experienced have 15 upon your relationship with your family? 16 A. I'm very sorry, I'm having trouble hearing you. 17 Q. I apologise. You asked me to speak up before. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What effect did the stress you experienced have upon 20 your relationship with your family? 21 A. Well, the stress was divided, because I had this 22 operation I was not able to work and go into the 23 Post Office and my partner and my wife at the time was 24 running the business, and then you would have these 25 fancy managers with fancy names pushing their product 119 1 and emphasis on, you know, what a nice person she is, 2 and she is a nice person, and what great staff that 3 I had and they couldn't understand why I was so 4 difficult to work with. 5 But my staff were not paying the bills, my staff 6 were not up late thinking about how am I going to find 7 that shortfall and knowing that there's going to be 8 another shortfall on the next period, on the next new 9 month, and the organisation had a lot of influence on 10 my partner and my staff because I was portrayed as 11 a difficult person and a thorn and they couldn't 12 understand how I got wonderful staff and I do agree 13 I have wonderful staff and wonderful people. But 14 I was the one who was carrying the issues which were 15 not getting resolved by the Post Office Horizon System 16 at the time. 17 The managers were just -- they were just happy 18 to come in and push the flavour of the month because 19 they were going to get an extra bonus regardless 20 whether they came in to work or not, they were going 21 to get waged. I know how it's like to put bread on 22 the table. 23 Q. What steps have you taken to obtain compensation for 24 the losses that you suffered, the money that you paid 25 in to make good shortfalls? 120 1 A. I've made the same steps as everybody else and I'm 2 part of the 555 group, and whatever was divided was 3 divided, and -- but there was no other avenues to me 4 that I could get my compensation because this was 5 a big organisation, and I was already ill health. 6 Q. How much did you receive in compensation on the 7 settlement of the litigation? 8 A. For personal reasons, I don't want to answer that 9 question but it was the average amount that everybody 10 else had received. 11 Q. Did it cover the amount that you've explained already 12 you paid in? 13 A. No, not even -- no, it didn't. It was the leftover of 14 the 555 group and whatever everybody else received, 15 I received that proportion of the proportion. 16 Q. How do you now feel about the treatment you received 17 from the Post Office when you experienced shortfalls 18 shown by Horizon? 19 A. Well, I've been abused by the organisation, so-called 20 Post Office Limited. They interviewed me, they found 21 my vulnerability which was I was keen to work hard and 22 to be successful. That's what they were looking for. 23 I joined the organisation. As soon as I joined the 24 organisation, this organisation was not what it was -- 25 it was said to be. It was a very close-knit 121 1 organisation, a very tight-lipped organisation. 2 And they have -- they have mentally abused me 3 throughout my being with the organisation. They've 4 emotionally broken me down. They've emotionally 5 broken my marriage, knowingly because it was not -- 6 I allegedly was the only person who had issues in 7 shortages. Out of 11,500 offices, I was the only one 8 and I know I was not because I was in the forefront of 9 the local organisation where there were people who 10 were scared to bring up the conversation openly. But 11 they were telling me that they were suffering 12 discrepancies -- they would not discuss how much or 13 amount, and I can't remember -- but I have been abused 14 by this organisation and this is not what I signed up 15 for. 16 Q. What do you think the Post Office needs to do to put 17 this right? 18 A. Sorry? 19 Q. Forgive me. What do you think the Post Office needs 20 to do to put this right? 21 A. Well, there are two organisations that need to put 22 things right. Firstly, the Post Office had an 23 attitude of "We are the police in our organisation". 24 What they say is what happened and what they say is 25 going to happen and there was no -- there's no 122 1 challenge abilities. 2 So what needs to be done, it needs to be an open 3 forum. Everybody should have accountability. As I'd 4 said earlier on, when I started the business it was 5 transparent. Everything was laid out. I had 6 booklets, I had daily records, I had monthly records, 7 everything was transparent. My staff knew exactly 8 what was going on, you know. 9 And the organisation was very arrogant and 10 abusive and it held on to their positions. That needs 11 to be broken down because the managers who became 12 managers were the guys who were posties or they were 13 on the shopfloor and because they were nice people and 14 they were nice to the managers, they moved up and got 15 promoted. Nobody had any qualifications. If you're 16 a manager, you must have manageable skills. If you're 17 an accountant, if you're an auditor, you need to have 18 some accountability skills. But most of the 19 organisation and auditors were just pals of a pal who 20 knew there was a job vacancy and applied, and it was 21 a close-knit organisation. 22 The other part on the Federation of 23 Subpostmasters, for too long they've all been under 24 the same -- under the same quilt. How can you have an 25 organisation funding another organisation to fund 123 1 their products? The Federation of Subpostmasters was 2 not a Federation, it was a boys' club, and I was 3 a thorn because I was asking too many questions and 4 I was -- but the Federation could only be a federation 5 because it was funded by the Post Office. It was 6 common knowledge that whatever the Post Office 7 whispered was going to be sanctioned by the 8 Federation. 9 Yes, we had conferences, they had different 10 meetings and they -- everybody had a role and 11 everybody had a beer or a glass of wine and -- it was 12 just from the outside, because I am an outsider 13 looking in, it was a boys' club funded by the big boy 14 who's going to say, There you are boys, you've got 15 your money, you've got your funds, now go and enjoy". 16 And the Federation would sanction everything that the 17 Post Office had agreed months ahead. 18 But I and another gentleman, and a lot of other 19 people who I consider as outsiders, not only myself 20 and Mark Baker, there were other a number of people 21 who stood up and said, "No, this is wrong". But the 22 Federation was on a-- they're all puppies on a lead. 23 And I challenged and I challenged and I was broken. 24 They have broken me and they had abused me. (Pause) 25 I feel abused. If there's a category somewhere, 124 1 it should be for the people, the subpostmasters and 2 their families, where they were emotionally abused by 3 this mother organisation who had a free fall and could 4 make any decision it wanted to. 5 Furthermore, I'd like to ask questions because 6 nobody's ever answered any of my questions. How is it 7 that out of 11,500 stores there are only 555 8 subpostmasters standing up and saying, "Yes, there was 9 a problem, there was a system issue"? All the other 10 subpostmasters were hushed up. And I know that from 11 first-hand experience and some of them were too 12 nervous for all their personal -- that they didn't 13 have the time, energy to challenge the organisation 14 and they just rolled over. 15 And I'm sorry, I was not going to roll over 16 because I came into this business to work hard, to 17 achieve. And I was an honest person but they 18 portraited me of being a difficult person. 19 And how can you have shortages? And the very 20 most important thing that nobody's ever brought up in 21 this forum is the Horizon System, as I'm to 22 understand, was bought from NatWest Bank because, 23 going back in 2002 or '4, NatWest Bank went through 24 a renovation and these units were bought second-hand 25 from NatWest Bank and they were installed in the 125 1 Post Offices. 2 So the main base, what we call the tower -- in 3 my office, I would have five different towers. Those 4 towers were already old, as old as I was at the time. 5 The reason I called this out is it's important to be 6 established because when I had the Horizon engineers 7 come over and they would come to see me at least once 8 a month because the printer would get jammed; the 9 screen would freeze up; the base unit, as we call it, 10 the base unit would not function, so I already knew 11 what to do because I had to switch off the base unit, 12 wait 30 seconds or a minute and reboot it. But we 13 were already handed out second-hand item. And it was 14 quoted -- I quote a specific engineer who -- a number 15 of engineers came and they were all, "Hello, my name" 16 and I already knew them by first name. "Yeah, come on 17 in. That unit's not there working, that's not 18 working, that screen's not working". And it was 19 common knowledge that it was already second-hand 20 equipment. All they upgraded was the screen and the 21 printers were upgraded. 22 And I'm just amazed on the amount of money that 23 the organisation Post Office Limited have spent. But 24 they went out and bought second-hand equipment. I'm 25 saying this out loud because it needs to be going on 126 1 record that I was informed by the Fujitsu engineers 2 numerous times that this was already chucked out, and 3 it was bought over by Post Office Limited. 4 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions for you. Is 5 there anything else you would like to add? 6 A. There's a lot of things I'd like to add. But it all 7 boils down to, sir, if I may, please be thorough and 8 please have Post Office Limited and its organisation 9 and its people to be accountable, and if you have the 10 authority and the ability to reorganise the 11 Federation, because they were just puppies on a leash. 12 And I champion this gentleman Mark Baker because 13 he, like I and like many others who stood up as 14 a group of 555, as we're known, who stood up and were 15 able to challenge, if you can break this foundation 16 and tell them to -- everybody should be qualified. 17 A manager cannot be a school-leaver who has been 18 school leaving and then suddenly become a manager. 19 Unless he's gone into training, got some -- but 20 majority of the people were just friends of friends 21 who knew there was a vacancy, pal of my pal, and it 22 was that kind of organisation. 23 SIR WYN WILLIAMS: All right. Well, thank you very, very 24 much for your evidence. I'm pleased that you were 25 able to come and explain all these things to us. I'm 127 1 going to leave in a moment and everybody else will 2 leave, and then you can leave last, so to speak, all 3 right. So thank you again. 4 A. I thank you. 5 (2.59 pm) 6 (Adjourned until Wednesday, 9 March 2022) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 128 1 I N D E X 2 SARAH OSOLINSKI (sworn) ..........................1 3 Questioned by MS KENNEDY .........................1 4 JOHN ANTHONY BOWMAN (affirmed) ..................21 5 Questioned by MS KENNEDY ........................21 6 CHRISTIAN CLEMENT (affirmed) ....................51 7 Questioned by MS HODGE ..........................51 8 MR PAUL HARRY, summary read by MR ENRIGHT .......76 9 MS HELEN WALKER BROWN, summary read by ........77 10 MR ENRIGHT 11 MS JANICE ADAMS, summary read by ........79 12 MR ENRIGHT 13 MR LAWRENCE BAILEY, summary read by ........80 14 MR ENRIGHT 15 MRS PAMELA LOCK, summary read by ........82 16 MR ENRIGHT 17 WITNESS 0281 (affirmed) .........................85 18 Questioned by MS HODGE ..........................85 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 129